Wednesday, September 21, 2016

John 17:5 - Jesus' Glory Before the World Existed

John 17:5 - Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

From time to time,  some may present John 17:5 as proof that Jesus is his God, claiming that Jesus said that his glory was equal to that of his Father's glory, and therefore that Jesus is Yahweh, or a person of Yahweh. Actually, the very fact that Jesus asks here for this glory shows that Jesus was not equal to his God and Father, since he asks for this glory from his God and Father.

The trinitarian, by use of his imagination, sometimes applies the imagined "dual nature" of Jesus, by which they claim that Jesus possesses two natures, two planes of being, at once.  This assumption they place over  John 17:3 and John 17:5, claiming that in John 17:3 Jesus referred to his  human part of his alleged "dual nature", while in John 17:5, Jesus referred to his God part of his alleged "dual nature."

Jesus evidently did not have this glory at the time that he said this prayer, else why would he ask his God and Father for this glory? And since he speaks of this as a glory that he once had before the world of mankind was made, then he was asking for a glory that he once had to be given to him again. However, this glory is not the glory that only belongs the only Most High. Such an idea has to be assumed, added to and read into what Jesus said.

Before Jesus became a human being of flesh, yes, even before the world of mankind had been made, Jesus had a glory with his God and Father, not a glory equal to his God, nor the glory of the only Most High, but as a celestial, heavenly being. Angels also possess this general glory as celestial beings. The Supreme Celestial glory, however, only belongs to the Most High, the God and Father of Jesus, and yet as Paul showed, there are various degrees of glory that exist on the celestial plane. -- John 1:1,2; 1 Corinthians 15:40,41.

When he became flesh, Jesus no longer had that celestial glory, but came to have the terrestrial glory of a sinless human being. Unlike Adam and all condemned in Adam, however, Jesus, as a human, never fell short of the glory of God; he kept his human crown of glory unblemished with sin. -- Psalm 8:5; Romans 3:23; 1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9; 4:15.
Having now sacrificed his human flesh/body, his human soul (his human "being/life"), his human blood (representing his human soul -- Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23), for the life of the world, Jesus is now no longer of the human glory, a little lower than the angels, but he again has the glory of the celestial, heavenly, with his God in in the invisible spiritual realm. -- Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 20:28; 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:19,20; John 6:51; Acts 20:28; Romans 5:9; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 1:7; 5:2; Hebrews 8:4; 9:24-26; 10:10-14; 2 Peter 3:18.

Another claim is that by Jesus' speaking of his existence before the world was made, Jesus was claiming to be the Creator, since he is alleged to have existed before any creation at all. In reality, this is what many like to assume and add that assumption to, and read that assumption into, what Jesus said. The world, the "kosmos", that Jesus speaks of, is the same "world" that is spoken of in John 1:10, the world into which Jesus came, and which world did not recognize him. That world does not include the angels; the angels were already in existence when the world, and all that is in it, was created through the firstborn creature. (Genesis 1:1; 2:1; Job 38:7; John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:15)

See also our studies on the following:

There is no proof in John 17:5, or anywhere else in the Bible, for the trinity dogma, or that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). The scriptures throughout keep Yahweh (Jehovah) and the one whom Yahweh sent separate as to their being.

Yes, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus." -- Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

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