Saturday, September 24, 2016

Hebrews 1:10-12- Does Jehovah Speak to Jehovah?


(This study needs to updated; links may not work; formatting is inconsistent)

And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail." -- Hebrews 1:10-12.

Our trinitarian neighbors and some others claim that in Hebrews 1:10-12, a scripture originally applied to Jehovah (Yahweh) is applied to Jesus. They tell us that it is Jehovah that is being spoken to by the Father in Hebrews 1:10-12, when the writer of Hebrews referenced Psalm 102:25-27. If in Psalm 102:25-27 it is indeed Jehovah who is being addressed, then who is it that is speaking to Jehovah? It would have to be the Psalmist himself. However, the writer of Hebrews indicates that it is the God of Israel who is speaking to the one being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27. Thus to say that is is Jehovah being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27 would, in effect, make the Psalmist be playing the role of Jehovah as applied in this manner to Hebrews 1:10-12. In actuality, there is no reason to believe that the Psalmist was playing the role of the Father [who is Jehovah] speaking to the Son [supposedly, according to trinitarians, who is also Jehovah].

Paul in Hebrews plainly tells us that this is God [Jehovah, "God" of Hebrews 1:1,2], the Father of Jesus, speaking to Jesus, his Son. We should, therefore, view Psalm 102:25-27 from this perspective, else we would come to the conclusion that Paul was wrong in his reference.

Paul was not wrong when he said the Father (Jehovah, "God" in Hebrews 1:1,2) spoke to his Son when referencing Psalm 102:25-27. Jehovah [the Father] is not being spoken to at all in these verses, but just as the writer of Hebrews truthfully tells us, it is "God" of Hebrews 1:1,2 who speaks to his Son when he stated these matters.

If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah in verse 24: "I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days." As David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Jehovah, the Father, spoke. From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want." -- Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.

It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were previously without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places. Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:

For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Jehovah saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Jehovah.

[Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, "My God, don't take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations."

[Hear Jehovah's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] "Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you." -- Psalm 102:26-28.

Thus we have no reason to believe Paul is incorrect in his application of the scripture, and likewise this scripture does not provide any proof of the claim that Jesus is Jehovah.

It is being claimed that when Hebrews 1:10 says "Lord", that "Lord" in this verse means "Jehovah" (Yahweh). We have no reason to imagine, assume, add to, and read into Hebrews 1:10, that by the reference to Jehovah's addressing Jesus as "Lord", that the one person who is Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 meant that Jesus is Jehovah. It was the "Lord Jehovah" of Isaiah 61:1 who anointed Jesus and made Jesus both Christ and "Lord". -- Psalm 2:2,6; 45:7; Ezekiel 34:23,24; John 10:29; Acts 2:23,36; 4:27; 10:36; Hebrews 1:9.

There is not a word for "lord" in Psalm 102, thus the writer of Hebrews 1:10 inserted this into the words that Jehovah spoke to the one anointed, as recorded in Psalm 102:25-28. Jehovah, of course, has no one as "lord" over Him, so if Jehovah were to speak of another as "lord", it would have to be in the sense that Jehovah has given to that one the power and authority as "lord", not that such would become Jehovah.

Is Jesus Being Designated as the Source of Creation?

In this scripture, Paul quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, and tells us that Jehovah is speaking here to his son. Does this scripture designate Jesus as "the" source Creator of the heavens and the earth? It does say that the "heavens" are the work of his hands, and that he was the one who laid the foundation of the earth. The question is what is meant by "heavens" here? What is meant by earth? Is it speaking of the entire universe?

Many fail to take into consideration the scriptures as a whole, and thus come up with the wrong conclusions concerning what is being said in this verse. We should rightly divide the Word of Truth, so as to make the proper applications as related to context as well as the rest of the scriptures. (2 Timothy 2:15) God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. (Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10) What we need to do, if we are to be harmony with what God's spirit has revealed, is look closely and compare spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing as given in the scriptures. -- 1 Corinthians 2:10,13.

In context, the heavens and earth being spoken of is said to pass away. Therefore, we can conclude that this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, and we can further conclude that it is not speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. -- Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5.

Hebrews 1:10: "And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands." We believe that this is referring to creation of the heavens and earth as described in Genesis 1:1, not of the planet, and certainly not the heavens where God resides. The present heavens and earth, which were created in the six days "beginning" of Genesis 1:1-31, will pass away, in effect, the will "changed" into the new heavens and earth. Peter speaks of this in a slightly different manner in 2 Peter 3, in that he speaks of three heavens and three earth, whereas Hebrews 1:10-12 combines the first two that Peter speaks of as one. 2 Peter 3:5,6 speaks of the heavens that were (past tense) and an earth, which had created by means of the word [Logos] of God. (John 1:1,3) This original creation was indeed created by means of the Logos, which had become corrupted because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-19; 8:19-22) but we should note that there was a world (kosmos) of mankind that passed perished in the flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:6) Please note the six days of Genesis 1:1 - 2:1, in which God created the heavens and the earth (Exodus 20:11; 31:17), through the Logos (John 1:3,10), do not refer to the making of the actual planet earth, nor of the making of the heavens that is God's throne. (Psalm 1:11; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34; 23:22; Acts 7:49) We have presented elsewhere the scriptural proofs that John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are not speaking of the creation of the whole universe, or the physical planets, stars, earth, etc. Certainly, when Genesis 1:1 speaks of heavens, it not speaking of the heaven where God resides with his angels (2 Chronicles 28:6; Job 1:6; Matthew 18:10; 1 Timothy 6:16), and of which the scriptures speak of as His throne. -- Psalm 11:14; 102:19; 103:19; Isaiah 66:1.

That first heavens and earth, or "world" (kosmos), as spoken of by Peter, had already perished at the time of the writing of both Psalm 102:25-27 and also of Hebrews 1:10. This agrees with Genesis 6:13, where God tells Noah that he was about destroy that earth -- not the planet itself -- but the conditions that had become prevalent upon the planet. That heavens and earth -- that world (kosmos) -- perished, but it was not the physical heavens and earth that perished, for these still exist. Out of the ruins of that kosmos, however, another heavens and earth came into being, which Peter refers to as "the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured." (2 Peter 3:7, Young's Literal Translation) While it is possible that the same Logos of God was used in establishing and laying the foundation of the present heavens and earth as had been used in the original heavens and earth that had been destroyed in the flood of Noah's day (2 Peter 3:5,6) , we should also recognize that the word "kosmos" -- world -- usually refers to the general world of mankind, which world (kosmos) was corrupted due to the sin of Adam. (Romans 5:12) Nevertheless, by comparing all of these spiritual revealings, we can come to one of two conclusions: if the writer of Hebrews is using the same "heavens and earth" in the same manner of Peter, then that it is the present heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:7) that is being spoken of Hebrews 1:10, which heavens and earth were established after the flood of Noah's day. It is this heavens and earth that Peter says "the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." (2 Peter 3:10) This agrees perfectly with Hebrews 1:10. However, it seems more likely that Paul, assumed to be writer of Hebrews is actually referring to the whole period from the creation in Genesis 1 until the time it passes away, ignoring the separation that Peter makes.

We know that the word *kosmos* (world) can be applied to the present world of mankind as going all the way back to Adam, disregarding the destruction of the *kosmos* that is spoken of as having perished in 2 Peter 3:6. Romans 1:20 appears to be speaking of the original creation of the world, for instance. Romans 5:12 speaks of sin entering into the world (kosmos), thus applying the word as disregarding the world that perished in the flood of Noah's day. Thus it is probably that the heavens and earth made by the hands of Jesus Hebrews 1:10 is referring to the same period of time spoken of in Genesis 1:1 - 2:1.

Regardless, the heavens and earth being spoken of in Genesis 1:1 are said to be created by God, but we learn in the New Testament that God created "through" the Logos, or as it reads in the World English at Ephesians 3:9: "God ... created all things through [Greek, dia, Strong's #1223] Jesus Christ." "All things [the all] through [Greek, dia, Strong's #1223] him, and for him, have been created him, and to him." (Colossians 1:16, Young's Literal Translation) Thus seen, when Colossians 1:16 says that "by" (Strong's 1722) all spoken of was made, the Greek word often transliterated as EN should be understood as instrumentality, that is, "by means of". God created the all (ta panta) through, by means of, his Son.

Regarding Colossians 1:16, see: Study of EN and DIA in Colossians 1 and Is Jesus Designated the Originator of Creation?

The "heavens" that ruled the earth in the beginning was also established by means of the Logos. However, it was corrupted by a usurper. Using the King of Tyre as a symbol of the angel that rebelled, this arrangement is spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13-15. Originally, there was one appointed/anointed in the heavens over Eden as a covering cherub, and that one rebelled against God's arrangements. Satan set himself up as the ruler and "god of this world". (2 Corinthians 4:4) Thus, we are told that our fight is against "against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." -- Ephesians 6:12.

The foundations of human society were also laid there (Mark 10:6), in family and fraternal relationships, on the basis of love and justice, on which the human race could have built up a social structure as fine and as sweet as that of heaven; and, in perfect joy with each other, mankind could have delighted without fear in the unfolding wonders with which the Creator had filled the earth, and possibly even other planets. But Solomon said: "This only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." -- Ecclesiastes 7:29.

They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. -- Hebrews 1:11.

This present evil world or arrangement -- both its heavens [the rulership by Satan and his demons as well as their human agencies] and its earth [the arrangement of disobedient human society in general] are to perish. Again, this is not speaking of the planet, nor of the physical heavens above, for these will never be removed.

As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail. -- Hebrews 1:12.

As a an old piece of clothing, they will be rolled up, and changed. As they were they will no longer be actively worn as a mantle. In effect, they will no longer be active. However, as God says: "Behold, I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5) The old system of Satan, as such is to be destroyed, but out of its "mantle", which is folded and changed, comes forth "the new heavens [with its New Jerusalem from which to rule] and the new earth," in which righteousness will dwell. - - Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13.

As foretold, Jesus has remained faithful from creation's beginning -- he has remained the same. Even while he came to suffer as a man on earth, he remained the same -- not the same in substance, for while as human, he did not have the glory of the heavenly substance (John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40), but he continued in faithful obedience to his God. (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8; 10:7-9) And Jesus now will remain the same, and his years will not fail or ever end, since having been made alive from death, he now dies no more. -- Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:16,25; Revelation 1:18.

There is nothing in any of this, however, that means that Jesus is Jehovah, his God. -- Hebrews 1:9.

What About Isaiah 48:13?

He laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved forever. -- Psalm 104:5, World English Bible translation.

Yes, my hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spread out the heavens: when I call to them, they stand up together. -- Isaiah 48:13, World English Bible translation.

He built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he has established forever. -- Psalm 78:69, World English Bible translation.

Through comparisons the scriptures, we should realize that the above scriptures are not speaking of the same things as "heavens" and "earth" that is being spoken of in Hebrews 1:10,11. In context of the latter, the heavens and earth are said to pass away. Thus, this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, nor is it speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. -- Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5; Matthew 18:10.

In Isaiah 48:13, Jehovah speaks of his laying the foundation of the physical earth and spreading out the physical heavens. These obey his commands, so that when he calls, they stand up together (in harmony). We see from Genesis 1:14-19 that the physical earth and the stars, etc., are shown as obeying the commands of Jehovah. -- Genesis 1:14-19.

The physical earth spoken of in Isaiah 48:13 has been established forever, and will never be removed forever . -- Psalm 78:69; 104:5 -- Strong's #05703 and #05769 are both used in Psalm 104:5, thus signifying that the foundation of the physical earth will never be removed.

Therefore, it will be true that the day will come when the righteous will never be removed from the physical earth when it has been made new, but the wicked will not dwell in the earth anymore. -- Psalm 37:9-11,22,28,39; Proverbs 10:30; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 20:1-5.

Thus, Isaiah 48:13 is speaking of the physical heavens and earth that will never be removed, while Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of a heavens and earth that will be be removed.

The Beginning

In Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, we read of a "beginning". Many have assumed that this "beginning" refers to absolutely everything in the universe, yet if we compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment, in both cases we can see that the scriptures show otherwise. Likewise, the "panta" -- all -- that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. -- John 1:10
See:

In Exodus 20:11, we read:
for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.
The above scripture says that Jehovah created the heavens and earth in 6 days. Does it mean 6 24-hour days? Genesis 2:4 speaks of "the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens." (KJV) In one place it says six days; in the other it speaks of one day. Obviously 6 X 24 hours does not equal 24 hours, so we realize that the word "day" is spoken of to designate any length of time -- sometimes consistent and definite in length and sometimes not so definite.

However, this entire creative "day", spoken of as "six days", is the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. It was this "world" that was made through Jesus, and which Jesus came into, and which did not recognize Jesus. (John 1:10) That the "beginning" spoken of in John 1:1 relates to the world into which Jesus came, can be seen from Jesus' statement in Mark 10:6: "But from the beginning of the creation, 'God made them male and female." (See also Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4) Jesus says that he was sent into this world by his God. "God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17, Revised Standard Version) It should be clear that by "world" here that Jesus did not mean the world of the angels, but rather that he was speaking of the world of mankind.

Jesus tells us that he was with his Father before this world, the world that he came into, and which world did not recognize him, was created. We have no reason to think that the glory which Jesus said he had with the only true God before the world was made was a glory that existed only the mind of God, for why should he ask for such a glory to be given to him? He was asking for the heavenly glory that he had with the only true God before the world into which he came was made, and which glory he did not possess while he was a human being. -- John 1:10; 17:5.

It needs to be emphasized what "world" is being spoken, in order to understand what is being spoken of when the scripture says that "all things were made through him, and without him not one thing was made." (John 1:3) It is this world that Jesus said he came into, and which he left. "I came out from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." (John 16:28, World English Bible translation) The scripture is not including the spirit world in this "world" of which he speaks, for it is not the spirit world that does not recognize him, but he refers to world that did not recognize him. The word "world" (kosmos) in the New Testament is consistently used, not of the material universe, but rather of the world in which mankind lives, although since the believers, or those in covenant relationship with God, are, in effect considered as separate from the world, the word "world" is thus sometimes used in exclusion of such believers. One can examine the usage of the word "kosmos" online at:https://biblehub.com/greek/2889.htm

That there was, then, a creation before the beginning of the world of mankind can be seen in the fact that the angels were already in existence before the earth was brought forth. (Job 38:4-6) While the scriptures do not specifically speak of the creation of the angels, we have no reason to conclude that the angels were not created, since man is said to have be made a little lower than the angels. -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7.

The beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 refers to the six days of creation as respects the ordering of the earth for life, especially that of man. We know this because of Exodus 20:11, 31:17. The heavens [the atmosphere, sky -- Genesis 1:8] and the earth [land-masses -- Genesis 1:10] were made in six days. This agrees also with Matthew 19:4,5, Mark 10:6 which refer to the "beginning" as when Adam and Eve were created. The angels were already in existence at this beginning, for they shouted with joy at the creation of earth. (Job 38:4-11) Likewise the "earth" in some material form appears to have already existed, for it "was" at the beginning of the first day (Genesis 1:2), similar to the expression that the Logos "was" in the beginning spoken of in John 1:1. And we know that the angels were already in existence at this creation, since they are spoken of in Job 38:4-7 as shouting for joy at the creatin of the earth. (See also Job 1:6; 2:1) The above additionally would be in harmony with several scriptures where "creation" is spoken with reference to creation of mankind, not the angels, stars, etc. -- Mark 10:6; Romans 8:20,22; 2 Peter 3:4.

By this we can see that the heavens and earth, spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10, as well as the "world" spoken of John 1:9,10; 17:5, was the work of the God and Father of Jesus (Romans 1:7; 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3), which was indeed performed through Jesus (Ephesians 3:9), the firstborn creature. -- John 1:3; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:10,11.

ADDENDUM

One has asked: In the context of this quote from Psalms...who is the Lord?

I am not sure what is being asked here. I am assuming that it is asking who is "the LORD" as it appears in most translations of Psalm 102? Most translators change the Holy Name to "the LORD", if that is what is being asked.

However, in Psalm 102:1-23, the Psalmist is speaking as though the Messiah, not Jehovah.

The following translation (provided by the person who asked the above question) renders the Holy Name as "Yahweh". But we should note that the Messiah says:

Let this be written for the next generation,
so that a people yet to be created may praise Yah,
that he looked down from his holy height.
Yahweh looked from heaven over the earth
to hear the groaning of the prisoner,
to liberate those destined to die,
so that they may make known in Zion the name of Yahweh,
and his praise in Jerusalem,
when the peoples assemble,
together with kingdoms, to serve Yahweh.
He has broken my strength along the way;
he has cut short my days.
I say, “My God, do not carry me off
from my life in the middle of my days.”

Jehovah then responds to the Messiah, His son:

Your years continue throughout all generations.
Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you will endure.
And like a garment they will all wear out,
you will replace them like clothing, and they will be set aside.
But you are the same,
and your years do not end.

This agrees with what is written in Hebrews 1:1-12; 5:7; 6:20; 13:20.

By Ronald R. Day, Sr.


Related RL Studies:

For related studies written by others on the above scriptures, see:
















Acts 5:3,4 - Ananias Lied to God, Not to Men

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. -- American Standard Version.

Our trinitarian neighbors often point to this scripture as being one of the scriptures that prove that the Bible teaches their trinity dogma. Actually, we find nothing at all in the verses that say that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person, or that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The claim is that the holy spirit is being called "God" in Acts 5. Actually, this scripture does not directly call the holy spirit "God." Nor is it saying that Ananias spoke directly to God or to the holy spirit. It was evidently Peter that Ananias directly lied to. At most, from this scripture, one could gather that the holy spirit is "God", but there is nothing in the scripture that gives reason to assume that God's Holy Spirit is a separate person of God. This thought would have to be added to what is said.
"Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart, to lie to the holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" -- Acts 5:3
Of course, the very and actual full being of Satan did not fill the heart of Ananias. Satan filled Ananias' heart in the same manner as God fills and dwells in the hearts of his people -- by his Spirit, his influence. (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 3:16) Satan's Spirit is one of covetousness and selfishness, which does not hesitate at deceit to accomplish its ends. Peter, who had been made the recipient of a special gift by means of the holy spirit of discerning of spirits, (1 Corinthians 12:10) was able to read the heart, to read the spirit, and thus could see that Ananias and Sapphira were acting dishonestly, pretending to do what they were not really doing. In this connection, the apostle uses the words "God" and "holy Spirit" interchangeably, saying, in verse 3, that they had lied unto the Holy Spirit, and, in verse 4, that they had lied unto God. The thought is the same. God's personal Holy Spirit, acting through the apostles, was God's personal representative, most emphatically; and consequently, in lying to the apostle who also represented God as well as his holy Spirit, Ananias and Sapphira were lying to God, lying to the holy Spirit of God, whose agent and representative Peter was.

One should note that the scriptures show that God's Holy Spirit is likened to God's finger, at least in as God's Holy Spirit represents the power of God. (Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20) One's finger is, of course, an extension of one's self, but one would not say that one's finger is another person of oneself. Regardless, what one's finger does is what is directed by the owner of that finger; what is done by one's finger is what is done by the person to whom the finger belongs. Likewise, with God and His Holy Spirit. The point is that as one's finger is an extension of the person to whom the finger belongs, so God's Holy Spirit is an extension of God to whom the Holy Spirit belongs. God's Holy Spirit could be used as an extension of God as more or less figuratively being God's mouth, His eyes, His ears, His heart, His disposition, His will, etc. Of course, God's holy spirit, being an extension of God Himself, could certainly be spoken of as being grieved. This does not mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scriptures that God is three persons, and that His Holy Spirit is one of the persons of Himself.

It may also be helpful to note other instances in the Bible where an action is attributed to Jehovah but which are also attributed to a human that represented Jehovah. One such instance is 1 Samuel 12:1,13. Verse one says: "Samuel said to all Israel, Behold, I have listened to your voice in all that you said to me, and have made a king over you." It was Samuel who directly appointed Saul as King of Israel. In verse 13 however, we read: "Now therefore see the king whom you have chosen, and whom you have asked for: and, behold, Jehovah has set a king over you." Here we see that it is Jehovah who set a king over Israel. If we applied the same logic that many apply to Acts 5:3, we would conclude that Samuel is Jehovah. However, using common sense we understand that Samuel represented Jehovah when he appointed Saul as king over Israel.

Another example is the anointing of David as King of Israel. 1 Samuel 10:1; 12:7 tells that Jehovah anointed David. Samuel 16:13 says Samuel anointed David. Again, Samuel is not Jehovah, but rather he represented Jehovah who anointed him.

We might also take the case of Saul of Tarsus, before he became the apostle Paul, and the statements made concerning his persecuting the church. In Philippians 3:6 Paul described himself as persecuting the church. However, in Acts 9:5, we read: "He [Saul] said, 'Who are you, Lord?' The Lord said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'" Should we conclude from this that the church is Jesus. No, but we remember the words of Jesus to his disciples: "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me." -- Matthew 10:40.

See our study on Similarities for more examples.

The trinitarian logic on this, however, is that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, but the next verse says he lied to God. Therefore they reason that the holy spirit is God, and then they further reason that God is one, and thus, they further imagine, assume, add to, and read into what is stated that the Holy Spirit of God is a person of God, etc. If we follow through with the trinitarian reasoning, however, the trinitarian logic would also require the holy spirit is Peter, since Ananias actually lied directly to Peter. Viewed from the way trinitarians often use scriptures to prove the trinity, this would produce a trinity: Holy Spirit, God, and Peter. The reality is that lying to Peter and the church was tantamount to lying to God whom Peter represented as an apostle, and lying against the influence of God's Spirit. Nevertheless, the holy spirit is essentially God, since it is God's personal "set apart" [holy] spirit, that he utilizes to do his will. This does not mean that God's Holy Spirit is a separate person of God.

There is nothing in what Peter said that gives one reason to imagine that Peter thought that by his words that he was saying that God is three persons, and that God's holy spirit is one of the three persons of  God. Indeed, in Acts 3:13; 5:30, we find that Peter presented the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as only one person. 

Thus we find nothing in Acts 5:3,4 that justifies the trinity doctrine. There is certainly nothing at all that even hints of three persons in one God. Nor is there anything to justify the teaching that the Holy Spirit itself is a person of God Almighty.

John 4:24

Some have used John 4:24 in an effort to prove that the holy spirit is God himself. There we read: "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth." An attribute of God's being is that he is spirit, invisible power. The scriptures place the invisible spirit in contrast with what is seen by the flesh. That which is spirit comes and goes as the wind, "and you hear its sound, but don't know where it comes from and where it is going." (John 3:8) Likewise, one born [or, begotten, as many wish it] of the spirit, one who is led by God's spirit, he walks not after the flesh, not by what he sees by the flesh, that which is visible to the human eye, but rather the invisible things he sees by the spirit through faith. (Romans 8:4,14; 2 Corinthians 5:7; Galatians 5:16,25) Thus, "we don't look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:18) God's being an invisible, powerful, spirit being does not give any reason to think that God's holy spirit is a separate person of God.

However, the scriptures also say that "God is a devouring fire", (Deuteronomy 4:24; see also Hebrews 12:29) We would not turn this around and say that a devouring fire is God, or that a "devouring fire" is a person of God. We also read that "God is love". Again, we would not turn this around and say that "Love" itself is God, or that "Love" is person of God.

What we don't see in John 4:24 is any hint that God's being spirit means that the holy spirit of God is a person of God. However, as said before, the holy spirit, being that extension of his power sent by God to accomplish his will, can in this sense been seen as a personal extension of God himself, although it would not give the proper thought to turn this around and say that the holy [set apart, dedicated] spirit itself is God.

God's holy spirit is likened to God's finger, His hand or His arm (as the power of God). -- Ezekiel 3:14; 8:3; 37:1; Matthew 12:28; Luke 11:20.

As the revealing of truth, the holy spirit appears to be likened to God's "mouth". (1 Kings 8:24; 2 Chronicles 6:4; 36:12,21; Ezra 1:1; Isaiah 1:20; 40:5; 45:23; 48:3; 58:14; 62:2; Jeremiah 9:12,20; Ezekiel 33:7; Micah 4:4; Matthew 4:4; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:17; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7; 9:8; 10:15,16; 2 Peter 1:21) Are we to think of God's mouth as a separate and distinct person of God (using trinitarian terminology)?

What God does through His holy spirit is what God himself has done. What is spoken to God's holy spirit, however, is the same as being said to God Himself. 

Some related Studies on the holy spirit may be found at:

Wednesday, September 21, 2016

John 17:5 - Jesus' Glory Before the World Existed

John 17:5 - Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

From time to time,  some may present John 17:5 as proof that Jesus is his God, claiming that Jesus said that his glory was equal to that of his Father's glory, and therefore that Jesus is Jehovah, or a person of Jehovah. Actually, the very fact that Jesus asks here for this glory shows that Jesus was not equal to his God and Father, since he asks for this glory from his God and Father.

The trinitarian, by use of his imagination, sometimes applies the imagined "dual nature" of Jesus, by which they claim that Jesus possesses two natures, two planes of being, at once.  This assumption they place over  John 17:3 and John 17:5, claiming that in John 17:3 Jesus referred to his  human part of his alleged "dual nature", while in John 17:5, Jesus referred to his God part of his alleged "dual nature."

Jesus uses forms of the word "glory" with different meanings in his prayer, but whatever he meant by "glory" in John 17:5, Jesus evidently did not have this glory at the time that he said this prayer, else why would he ask his God and Father for this glory? And since he speaks of this as a glory that he once had before the world of mankind was made, then he was asking for a glory that he once had to be given to him again. However, this glory is not the glory that only belongs the only Most High. Such an idea has to be assumed, added to and read into what Jesus said.

Before Jesus became a human being of flesh, yes, even before the world of mankind had been made, Jesus had a glory with his God and Father, not a glory equal to his God, nor the glory of the only Most High, but as a celestial, heavenly being. Angels also possess this general glory as celestial beings. The Supreme Celestial glory, however, only belongs to the Most High, the God and Father of Jesus, and yet as Paul showed, there are various degrees of glory that exist on the celestial plane. -- John 1:1,2; 1 Corinthians 15:40,41.

When he became flesh, Jesus no longer had that celestial glory, but came to have the terrestrial glory of a sinless human being. Unlike Adam and all condemned in Adam, however, Jesus, as a human, never fell short of the glory of God; he kept his human crown of glory unblemished with sin. -- Psalm 8:5; Romans 3:23; 1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9; 4:15.

Having now sacrificed his human flesh/body, his human soul (his human "being/life"), his human blood (representing his human soul -- Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23), for the life of the world, Jesus is now no longer of the human glory, a little lower than the angels, but he again has the glory of the celestial, heavenly, with his God in in the invisible spiritual realm. -- Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 20:28; 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:19,20; John 6:51; Acts 20:28; Romans 5:9; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Ephesians 1:7; 5:2; Hebrews 8:4; 9:24-26; 10:10-14; 2 Peter 3:18.

Another claim is that by Jesus' speaking of his existence before the world was made, Jesus was claiming to be the Creator, since he is alleged to have existed before any creation at all. In reality, this is what many like to assume and add that assumption to, and read that assumption into, what Jesus said. The world, the "kosmos", that Jesus speaks of, is the same "world" that is spoken of in John 1:10, the world into which Jesus came, and which world did not recognize him. That world does not include the angels; the angels were already in existence when the world, and all that is in it, was created through the firstborn creature. (Genesis 1:1; 2:1; Job 38:7; John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:15)

Links to some studies related to the above:

There is no proof in John 17:5, or anywhere else in the Bible, for the trinity dogma, or that Jesus is Jehovah. The scriptures throughout keep Jehovah and the one whom Jehovah sent separate as to their being.

Yes, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus." -- Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

Sunday, September 18, 2016

Hebrews 1:8 - Why is Jesus called "Elohim" and "Theos"? Psalm 45:6,7

Hebrews 1:8 but of the Son he says, "Your throne, God [Theos; Psalm 45:6: elohim], is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God [Theos, Psalm 45:7: ELOHIM, that is, Jehovah -- Isaiah 61:1], has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows." -- Psalm 45:6,7.

Many cite Hebrews 1:8 as proof that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As these verses appear in most translations, and without adding a lot of trinitarian or oneness assumptions to the verses, it would seem to be saying that there are two Gods -- two Supreme Beings, one Supreme Being that anoints another Supreme Being.

Some have claimed "he" in the phrase "he says" refers to the Psalmist who wrote the words in Psalm 45:6,7. Actually, however, "he" is a continuing reference in verses 5 through 13 that applies to the one person who is God of Hebrews 1:1,2. The unipersonal "God" is at the center working through "his Son." In Hebrews 1:5, "he" has to be referring the unipersonal God of Hebrews 1:1, since "he" says to the Messiah, "You are my son," as spoken of in Hebrews 1:2. In Hebrews 1:6, "he" who brings his firstborn again into the world has to be the unipersonal "God" of Hebrews 1:1. Likewise In Hebrews 1:7,8, we have no reason to think that "he" does not refer to the unipersonal "God" of Hebrews 1:1.

Thus, the Psalmist is evidently quoting God, at least in Psalm 45:6,7, and he prophetically speaks of the Anointed One, and the God of the Anointed One. Forms of the Hebrew word often transliterated as Elohim are used of both, but it is evident from the context that the same meaning is not to applied to both. The One who does the anointing is spoken of the as the God of the One being anointed, thus the One doing the anointing is the Supreme Being of the One being anointed. This is shown in Psalm 45:7 and Hebrews 1:9. One anoints the other with the oil of gladness. The one being anointed has companions. These companions are probably the angels mentioned earlier, or his "brothers" mentioned in Hebrews 2:11; one does not normally think of God Almighty as having "brothers".

Like many of the Psalms, many believe that there is an original minor typical application as well as the major antitypical application of Psalm 45. Some scholars say that the original application of this Psalm was to Solomon. We read that Solomon "sat on the throne of Jehovah." (2 Chronicles 29:23; see also: 1 Kings 1:13) Likewise, Jesus' throne is also God's throne (Revelation 3:21), which he receives from his Father, the only true God. -- Psalm 2:4-6; Daniel 7:13,14; Acts 2:29-31; John 17:1,3.

Jehovah is the God [Supreme Being] of Jesus. Jesus was anointed by his God. Who is the Supreme Being over the Anointed One that is spoken of in Psalm 45:7 and Hebrews 1:9? The scriptures provide the answer in other scriptures. Another prophecy, provides the answer, in Isaiah 61:1, which has the Messiah prophetically saying: "Jehovah has anointed me." It is the Supreme Being -- Jehovah -- the God [Supreme Being] of Jesus, who did the anointing, and who called Jesus theos (translated from elohim -- Psalm 45:6,7; See also Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 17:1,3; 20:17; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 5:20; Colossians 1:3; Hebrews 1:9; 1 Peter 1:3 Revelation 2:7; 3:2,13). Thus elohim who received the anointing is not the Supreme Being, since Jehovah is referred to as his Supreme Being. Thus, we should realize that elohim as being applied to the One Anointed does not carry the same meaning as it does for the One who did the anointing.

Jesus is prefigured by Moses, who is also called elohim, as well as "as" elohim. "And you [Moses] shall speak to him [Aaron], and you [Moses] shall put the words in his [Aaron's] mouth. And I [Jehovah] will be with your mouth, and with his mouth, and I will teach you wht you shall do. And he shall speak for you to the people. And it shall be, he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be a god [elohim] for him." (Exodus 4:16, Jay Green's A Literal Translation of the Bible, 1985) "And Jehovah said to Moses, Come, see I have made you a god [elohim] to Pharaoh." (Exodus 7:1, Jay Green's A Literal Translation of the Bible, 1985) -- Deuteronomy 18:18,19; Acts 3:19-23.

From this and other usages of the Hebrew words for "god", we determine that its meaning does not always mean the restriction of "Supreme Being", or the Almighty; nor does its usage of others mean that the others to whom it is applied are necessarily "false gods". Remembering that the basic meaning of Hebrew words for God is "strength" or "power"*, we need to note that Elohim is applied to Moses in this sense, that is, that God gave to Moses power, or strength, over Aaron and Pharaoh. Only Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus, is God as the Supreme Being, or the exclusive Source of All Power. Moses was not this exclusive source of power, thus it would be false to refer to him as "God" with the restricted meaning of "the Supreme Being", but he was called elohim, since Jehovah gave him special powers.
*See our document:
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
and:

Indeed, the spirit that impersonated Samuel is also called elohim. "The king said to her, Don't be afraid: for what do you see? The woman said to Saul, I see a god [Hebrew, elohim] coming up out of the earth." (1 Samuel 28:13, World English) However, it should be apparent that elohim here applied to this spirit is not in the same manner as it is applied to Jehovah. This spirit does have power granted by God, even though he is misusing the power as a spirit being. Recognizing this some translations render elohim here as:
  • *divine being* (New American Standard; New Revised Standard Version)
  • *spirit* (New King James Version; Good News Translation; New Century Translation; The Message translation; Contemporary English Version)
  • *godlike being* (Jewish Publication Society Bible).
Others render it as "a god" and some render it as plural "gods"; "gods", however, does not actually fit the context. Of course, how it is rendered in English does not change the word used in the Hebrew.

Likewise, the word is used in the plural sense as applied to the angels. It should be apparent that elohim applied to the angels is not in the same manner as applied to Jehovah. -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7.

See our study:

The sons of God to whom the Word of God came likewise are also called elohim, but again we can see that they are not elohim in the same manner as the word is applied to Jehovah. (Psalm 82:6) Jesus, in quoting this Psalm, used the plural form of the Greek word THEOS, thus showing that he considered the Greek word THEOS in the same manner as the Hebraic usage of EL and ELOHIM when applied to others than the only true God.

See our study: Who Are the Gods?

Likewise, it should be apparent that in Hebrews 1:1,5,8 (Psalm 45:6) that theos (elohim) applied to the Son is with a different meaning than applied to Jehovah. Paul definitely identifies one person who speaks of his Son, thus the Son to whom "God" speaks is not "God" who does the speaking. There is definitely nothing in either Hebrews 1 or Psalm 45 about three persons in one God. The word *elohim* in the Old Testament usually refers to Jehovah, but as a general descriptive word it is often applied to others, which would include Jesus, the Son of Jehovah. In giving all power to Jesus, it is evident that the One who gave this power to Jesus is excepted. (1 Corinthians 15:27) The very fact that this power over his fellows is given to Jesus by Jehovah's anointing shows that Jesus is not equal to Jehovah, and thus that Elohim, as applied to Jesus, is not in the exclusive meaning as it is applied to Jehovah, for only Jehovah is the source of all power.

In the above scriptures we see three individual beings who are called elohim: Jehovah, Jesus and Moses. Only Jehovah has the position of Supreme Being, however, since both Moses and Jesus receive their power from Jehovah. We have no reason to believe that the author of Hebrews chapter one understood Psalm 45 in any other way than it had been viewed at the time it was written. The wording of the psalm draws a clear distinction between the one and only Ultimate Power, the Father (Creator) Who is the Majesty On High, -- and the secondary "Power", the son who was sent by Jehovah and to whom learned to obey though what he suffered. (Hebrews 1:1,2; 3:2; 5:8) Therefore, the Ultimate Power, the Creator of the first-born of creation, has anointed His obedient son (who offered up both petitions and entreaties to the One able to save him from death -- Hebrews 5:7) above his peers.

Additionally, we should also note how some translations render Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6:

Hebrews 1:8
  • Today's English Version: Your kingdom, O God, will last forever! You will rule over your people with justice.
  • Revised Standard Version, margin: God is thy throne for ever and ever. as obtained from:https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+1%3A8&version=RSV
  • Moffatt translation (1922): he says of the Son, "God is Thy throne for ever and ever."
  • Daniel Mace New Testament (1729): but to the son he saith, "God is thy throne for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of equity.
  • Twentieth Century translation: while of the Son he said--'God is thy throne for ever and ever
Psalm 45:6
  • Revised Standard Version: Your divine throne endures for ever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.
  • Good News translation: The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever. You rule over your people with justice.
  • New Jerusalem Bible - Your throne is from God, forever and ever.
  • The Message translation: "Your throne is God's throne, ever and always; The scepter of your royal rule measures right living."
  • JPS Version: Thy throne given of God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
  • New English Bible translation: Your throne is like God's throne
Either way, however, there is nothing in Hebrews 1:8 or Psalm 45:6,7 that would lead us to think that Jesus is Jehovah. There is certainly nothing about three persons in one God.

Related RL Studies


Related Links
Please note that we do not necessarily agree with all that is stated on the following links, nor do the authors of these pages necessarily agree with us in all we say.

 The Trinity (David Stein)










Psalm 82:6 - - Who Are the Gods? (moved)

 Moved to:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2020/07/ps82-6.html

Thursday, September 15, 2016

Jehovah and Jehoshua - James Parkinson

Jehovah and Jehoshua -- James Parkinson, General Convention, June 26, 2011. (MP3) LEFT ClICK to play; RIGHT CLICK to download


Brother Parkinson discusses many things in this discourse. Overall, I am in agreement with much that he says. I will make a few comments:


To my understanding, ancient Hebrew actually does not have "tenses" as such; it does have what many refer to as "aspects" and "moods". Most scholars, not all, claim that ancient Hebrew has two of what could be called 'tenses', although there is some room for doubt in calling these "tenses," since it may be misleading. The two different formations of verbs, however, are often presented as reflecting a completed action, or an incomplete action. Such is often called the perfect tense (completed action) and imperfect tense (incompleted action), but some have considered such designations to be misleading. Beyond this, many scholars have presented other various theories of this or that verb "tense" in ancient Hebrew, usually as it applies to some specific word, and/or regarding a specific usage of some specific word. The truth is that verb tense as we know it in ancient Hebrew is determined by context as much as by form. -- page 44, footnote.


Regarding the generation that will not pass away: While I can say there is a possibility that Brother Parkinson may be correct, I have a hard time thinking of the church as passing away. It would have to refer to the church as passing away in death as individuals in this present age. I believe that Jesus was more likely not referring to the church, for the church is of the new generation that will not pass away, that generation will continue forever. Rather, I believe that Jesus was referring to the old generation existing through Adam. The passing away of the Adamic generation is described by Jesus as the passing away of the present heavens and earth.


See my related studies on "This Generation"



Tuesday, September 13, 2016

Isaiah 9:6 - The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh [Jehovah] of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.
Image by Ronny Overhate from Pixabay
In Isaiah 9:6, we are given a descriptive "name" (singular) of our Lord Jesus. The Hebrew name has been transliterated as: "Pele-Joez-el-gibbor-abia-ad-Sar-Shalom." (The dashes between words are supplied by the one who gave this transliteration.) Most translations break this "name" down into different titles by adding commas, so that many have often referred to each title as a separate "name" of the Messiah. In actuality, however, it is given in the scripture as a singular (descriptive) name, not a set of "names" (plural).

If one understands how the seed of Abraham (Jesus and those who belong to him in this age) will bless all the families of the earth when the saints are revealed, then one one can understand that this "name" prophetically speaks of the coming reign of Jesus and the saints, when "the government will on this shoulder". In the context, Isaiah 9:7 includes the millennial reign, but also includes the "ages to come" after the millennial reign. We read there: "Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever." Then we find the statement: "The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:7) Thus this coming time when Messiah will be called by the name given Isaiah 9:6 is yet future, and is the result of Jesus' God, Jehovah (Luke 1:32,33). Thus we recommend a study of "Mankind's Course to the Day of Judgment"
as well as the studies at:

As a singular name, we believe that the name itself describes, not the bearer of the name, but rather the God of the bearer. Nevertheless, if the titles are applied to Jesus as presented in the added commas that are often put into the name, we find that two of the titles often attributed to our Lord Jesus have often caused much confusion to many Christians. They are misused to teach the early heresy of a triune God - or three persons in one god, equal in power, glory and all other respects. It is claimed that Isaiah 9:6 proves the dual nature of Jesus. We will in this study present the background material that should clear up the misunderstanding concerning these two titles attributed to Jesus.

Many reach a wrong conclusion because in most of our English translations, the phrase often transliterated as "el gibbor" [or as many prefer, EL gibbowr] is rendered as a separate name/title, usually with captalization, "Mighty God", "the Mighty God", or sometimes "a Mighty God". Thus the claim is often made that since there is only one "God", thus Jesus is here being called the Supreme Being. Of course, one has to either deny or ignore the Hebraic usage of the Hebrew word EL, as well as the context of Isaiah 9:6, which distinguishes the only true God from the one whom the only true God gives as a son. Our trinitarian neighbors are quick to point out that the same phrase is used of Jehovah in Isaiah 10:20,21 (some also point to Jeremiah 32:18). Some claim that this phrase is only used of Jehovah in the Old Testament scriptures. As we shall see, this is misleading, to say the least. The same Hebrew phrase is used also in Ezekiel 32:21, although the phrase is possibly used as a plural intensive in this verse, (often transliterated as elei gibborim). In this verse, as far as we know, no English translation renders the Hebrew word EL as "God", but rather with its general meaning of "might", "power", "strong", etc. The King James Version renders the Hebrew phrase (two Hebrew words) in Ezekiel by using five English words: "The strong among the mighty". In other words the King James translators recognize that the word EL here is not referring to the Supreme Being, but rather that it is being used of generic "strength", thus they rendered it as "strong". Similarly, the World English Bible translation renders Ezekiel 32:21 as:
The strong [ELIE - a form of Strong's #410, EL] among the mighty [GIBBORIM] shall speak to him out of the midst of Sheol with those who help him: they are gone down, they lie still, even the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Jay Green's interlinear (word-for-word) rendering is:
shall speak to him The strong [EL - Strong's #410] of the mighty [gibbowr - Strong's #1368] from the  of midst Sheol.
See Analysis of Ezekiel 32:21:
https://biblehub.com/text/ezekiel/32-21.htm

In Ezekiel 32:21, we have a form of the phrase El GIBBOR, although it is plural in the Hebrew; it is the same basic phrase of Isaiah 9:6, speaking pictorially of the kings who had already lost their rulership to the king of Babylon, as though they were in a death-like condition in sheol. The New Living Bible translates this phrase as "mighty leaders". The New Century translation renders it: "the leaders of the mighty ones." Rotherham renders it: "the chiefs of the mighty." The Geneva Bible renders it: "The most mighty and strong." The Bishop's Bible translates it: "The mightie worthies." Wycliffe renders it: "The myytieste of stronge men." Most translations render it something like "the strong among the mighty". Using these translations of Ezekiel 32:21 as a pattern, EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 could also be rendered "Mighty and Strong", or "Mighty One of Strength", especially since the context shows that the one being spoken of is not the only true God, Jehovah. However, with the reasoning often presented, that EL GIBBOR can only apply to Jehovah, then by this same manner of reasoning we should conclude that all the kings pictured as speaking from sheol are Jehovah the only true God. The fact is that the reasoning is false; EL, when used of others than Jehovah, takes on a general meaning of strength, might, power, etc., and thus EL GIBBOR can be used of others without designating them as the Supreme Being.

As we have pointed out elsewhere*, the word El has a dual meaning, one of which is the Might of the universe (Supreme Being), and the generic meaning of "strength", "power", "might", etc. This word is Hebrew #410 in Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary, which defines it as: "short. from 352; strength; as adj. mighty; espec. the Almighty (but used also of any deity)." StudyLight's Online Hebrew Lexicon defines it similarly: "shortened from 0352 ... 1) god, god-like one, mighty one; 1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes; 1b) angels; 1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations); 1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah; 2) mighty things in nature; 3) strength, power".

Other authorities give it the same or similar meanings. Consequently it is applicable to any powerful being and especially so the most powerful - the Almighty Jehovah
==========
*See our study on :"The Hebraic Usages of the Titles for 'God'"

That the word is thus used may be readily seen by anyone who will carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El are in italics: "It is in the power of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no might in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our power." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the great mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the power of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Who among the sons of the mighty." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Jehovah] among the Gods [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Jehovah], O ye mighty." (Psalm 29:1) "The mighty God [ruler] even the Lord [Jehovah]."  -- Psalm 50:1.

If we notice the above texts carefully and critically, all will agree that the context in every case shows the meaning of the Hebrew word El to be powerful one or mighty. And we also have the statement in the last three quotations that Jehovah is the Supreme "El" [the Supreme Being] and rules over all other ones called "el" - powerful ones or mighty ones. And it should be noted that Jehovah is the name applied to none other than the Supreme Being - our Father, and him whom Jesus called Father and God. (John 17:1,3: 20:17; Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Rom. 8:34; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Pet. 3:22) The meaning then of the words "Mighty God" in our text, is: "He shall be called the Mighty One of Strength. And so he is, for to him the Father has given all power in earth and heaven. (Matthew 28:19, and 11:27) "He is Lord of all" - next to the Father for "The head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3) All the things subjected to him, however, is with the evident exception of the Supreme Being who has given him this power. (1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:3,17-23) Jesus and his God are one in mind, purpose, etc., because Jesus willingly submitted his own will to that of his God and Father (John 5:30) just as we also must willfully submit our own will, mind, spirit to that of the Father if we would be made heirs and sons of God.

Many trinitarians, however, claim that this submission is one person of God to another person of God. In reality, nowhere does the Bible ever even give a hint that one being equals three persons. All through the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is spoken of as ONLY one person; he never presents Himself as more than one person, and no Bible writer ever speaks of Him as more than one person. The trinitarian thought has to added to and read into each and every scripture presented to allegedly support the trinity, and imaginative interpretations, such as the one just mentioned, have to be offered to make many other scriptures seem to be in harmony with the added-on doctrine. As a result, what is actually presented as proof of the trinity is what the trinitarian leads a person to imagine and assume regarding a verse, and not what is actually said. The trinitarian feels he needs to add all this to the Bible in order to maintain the concept of "monotheism". But there is more to this than this, for many of them believe, contrary to what the scriptures say, that a "man" could not redeem man. Many of them tell us that Jesus had to be God in order to pay the price for sin, although there is no scripture anywhere that says such. Indeed, all the scriptures declare that what was required was "a [sinless] man", not God, to give himself in sacrifice to God. God did not sacrifice himself to himself. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Ephesians 5:2; Philippians 4:18) Additionally, if Jesus was actually Jehovah in the flesh, as many claim, then rather than condemning sin in the flesh, he actually justified sin in the flesh. See our study: "How God's Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh".

It has been claimed that the Jews had expected that the Messiah would be God Almighty himself, based on Isaiah 9:6. This is actually an assertion rather than reality. The Jewish Publication Society Bible (JPS) translation (1908) renders Isaiah 9:6 as: "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; [Footnote: That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.]" The Hebrew is expressed in this translation as a singular "name". We doubt that any ancient Hebrew reading this would imagine, assume, and read into this verse that the one being spoken of was being called God Almighty.*

What about Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18? Yes, this phrase is applied to Jehova in these two verses, and we believe that in Isaiah 9:6, it is also applied to Jehovah, the one who sent Jesus. (Isaiah 61:1) But even if one applies EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 as a separate name or title to Jesus, it would not mean that Jesus is Jehovah, but only that Jesus is a mighty one, as shown above. Of course, Jehovah, being the Almighty, is most certainly a Mighty One of Power, so the title is applicable to him. Surely the phrase EL GIBBOR *can* be used of Jehovah. This does not mean that it cannot be also used of the Messiah as the one anointed by Jehovah. (Psalm 2:6; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27) Isaiah 9:7 shows that Jehovah is the one who causes the name of Isaiah 9:6 to be called upon the Messiah, thereby distinguishing between Jehovah who send the son from the son who is sent.

This does not mean that the same title, if applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is the Supreme Being, any more than it means that kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21 are Jehovah. The big difference of application to Jehovah from its application to the Messiah is that the position of the Mighty One of Power in Isaiah 9:6 is a position and name given to Jesus by Jehovah, the only true Most High. Add to this the fact Jehovah is distinguished in the context from the Messiah being spoken of in Isaiah 9:6. (Isaiah 9:7; Isaiah 11:1-5; Luke 1:32,33; John 5:22,23,27) Jesus is not the Most High; Jesus is the Son of the Most High.

On one site, the claim is made that in Isaiah 9:6, "Jesus is clearly God, (Everlasting Father) and Wonderful Counselor (the Holy Spirit) and the Prince of Peace (Christ)." Thus, this author would make the alleged second person of the alleged triune God/Godhead to be all three of the alleged persons of the triune God/Godhead, evidently without realizing this evident self-contradiction. Of course, this author is using a translation that contains the placement of commas so as to make it appear that more than one name is involved, rather than the singular "name" as the scripture clearly shows.

At any rate, there is nothing in the phrase EL GIBBOR as part of the "name" by which the Messiah "shall be called" that means that Jesus is his God. At the end of this study we are providing several ways that Isaiah 9:6 has been translated by different translators. Please notice how EL GIBBOR is rendered in those translations.

Everlasting Father

The second appellation, "Everlasting Father," means in the Hebrew just what it does in English, that is: "a father forever." The word father signifies cause or authorship of being - or life giver. While we believe that phrase is actually in reference to the God and Father of Jesus, even if applied to Jesus, Isaiah's declaration would only mean that Jesus will be hereafter known as an author of life - or life giver to someone. To whom will he give life? Paul answers: "As in Adam all die so in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) The "all" being referred to are Adam and his descendants. (Romans 5:12-19) From this we learn that Christ becomes the Father of the entire human race, becoming the "last Adam", the father of the regenerated race, as Adam was the father of generation that came to be perverse, corrupt, through Adam's sin.

In this regard, we should note what plane of life is given to the regenerated race of Adam. The scriptural answer is: "a sinless human plane of life," hence an eternal human life - just what they lost through Adam's transgression. So Paul tells us (Romans 5:18,19): "As through one [man's] offense judgment came on all men to condemnation [condemning all to a loss of life] so also, through one [man's] righteous act judgment came on all men to justification of life. [That is, through the obedience of Christ the death penalty will be removed - in - by means of -- his death.  The death penalty was paid and all men will have a right to life again - the same plane of life and glory once possessed, then lost, which has been redeemed or purchased back.] For as through the disobedience of one man the many were made sinners [and because sinners deprived of life], so also, through the obedience of the one [Christ] the many [the same number] will be constituted [made] righteous."

We see then that the special work of Christ for the human race was the counteracting or rolling back of the penalty of Adamic sin - death (the cessation of life), so that the human race may be regenerated as a new creation. In this, Jesus is the Great Physician or Restorer; and the age during which this (result of his death on their behalf) will be accomplished is called "The Times [years] of restoration" - or giving back - of the blessing lost through the entrance of sin. Sinless human life was the principal thing lost and it Jesus is to give back - and in so doing he will (future) be called "Everlasting Father." [The "joint-heirs" with Christ who are selected in this age are exceptions in that they attain the resurrection of Jesus, the resurrection of a heavenly, not earthly glory.*]
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*For a detailed presentation of the scriptures concerning the two general glories to be given in the resurrection, please see our studies:

With What Kind of Body Will We Be Raised?

and 
The Manner of the Resurrection

Adam was so created that he might be the father or life-giver to a race of human beings. Through disobedience, Adam lost his own right to life - became a dying sinner. He could only give to his posterity what he possessed - a dying nature - and consequently, none of the race ever attained perfect life. Thus Adam failed to become in the full, proper sense a father or life-giver. It is because Christ will accomplish this work of life-giving in which Adam failed, that he is called the "Everlasting Father."

But someone may inquire: Do you not teach that Jesus is a spirit being and of the divine plane of glory since his resurrection? Yes. Then, we are asked, would not any life imparted by Him be of the same plane as his own, that is, divine spirit? By no means. Jehovah is the life-giver, or father of all creation; yet all creation is not possessed of the divine spirit plane. Jehovah has given Jesus also the power or authority to be a life-giver. (John 5:21) That he, as the representative of God, will use his power to raise both the just and the unjust, some to a heavenly spirit body and others to an earthly physical body, can be seen from the following scriptures. (John 6:39,40,44; 11:24; 12:47,48; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23,37-41) Thus in a broad sense Jesus is the Father of both the church and world.

However, nowhere is it recorded that the sons of God who are begotten of holy spirit in this age call Jesus "Father". Why not? Because the God of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3) regenerates, through the application of the ransom sacrifice of his Son, the justified ones who are called out in this age as his own sons. (Romans 8:14,15; Galatians 4:5; Titus 3:4,5) Thus Jesus does not directly refer to them as 'his sons,' but rather as the sons that his God has given to him. (Hebrews 2:13) In view of this regeneration, Jesus thus tells his followers to pray "Our Father." (Luke 11:2) And also: "Glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16) "Be children of your Father." (Matthew 5:45) "Pray to your Father and your Father who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 6:6) "Your Father knows what things you have need of.", etc., etc. Jesus also said: "I ascend to my Father and to your Father." -- John 20:17.

Again Jesus made a very emphatic statement of our dear and close relationship to him and to the Father when he said: "Whoever will do the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister and mother." (Matthew 12:50) "Call no man Father on earth for one is your father: God, and all of you are brothers." (Matthew 23:9) And Paul assures us that "both he who sanctifies (Jesus) and they who are sanctified (the church) are all one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them 'brothers.'" -- Hebrews 2:11.

But how are we to understand the words of Jesus at John 10:27,28: "My sheep hear my voice and I give them eternal life"? While it is Jesus who gives eternal life, Paul tells us that "God [Note that "God" used here has to be unipersonal, not tripersonal] has both raised up the Lord and will also raise up us by his own power." (1 Corinthians 6:14) Both statements are true, because the Father raises the dead through his Son, to whom the Father has given all this power, just as the unipersonal God of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3), by means of Jesus, judges the world. -- Matthew 28:18; John 5:21-30; Isaiah 96:13; 98:9; Acts 17:31.

The Psalmist writes prophetically of Messiah: "Instead of your fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth." (Psalm 45:17) Thus these faithful forefathers of Jesus become his children, whom he appoints as princes in all the earth. (Isaiah 32:1) The application of this is still future, when the forefathers of Jesus are raised from the dead back here on the earth, who then become "children" to Jesus. This fathership will be eternal, and thus the phrase "everlasting father" could be applied to Jesus as such.

Nevertheless, something else we should note about trinitarians and the term "everlasting father" in Isaiah 9:6. Trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father. However, our oneness friends claim Jesus is his Father, that Jesus is the Son of Jesus, and that Jesus is the Spirit of Jesus the Father. Such would make him his own father. Trinitarians, however, would have us believe that there are three persons in one being called God, and that the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father. In reality, if this title in Isaiah 9:6 should be applied to the Son as proof of the trinity doctrine, then Jesus would be the Father, and thus he would be his own Father. Therefore, by their own rules, this title, everlasting father, if applied to Jesus, could not be used to prove the trinity doctrine, for trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father.

Additionally, since the Bible clearly tells us that the Father is one God "of whom are all," this should settle the matter. Only the Father is the Supreme Being, the source of all. And thus Jesus refers to his God and Father as the "only" true God, and then excludes Jesus because Jesus was sent by this only true God. (John 17:1,3; John 3:16,17) Regardless, the title "everlasting father" could certainly not be construed to say that Jesus is the Father, therefore some trintarians try to apply the term "father" in Isaiah 9:6 as meaning something other than the God and Father of Jesus.

Jesus is the son of Jehovah, the anointed of Jehovah. He is not Jehovah- the God of Israel. Yawheh -- the God of Israel -- is the God and Father of Jesus. -- Psalm 2:7,8 [John 1:14; Hebrews 1:5]; Psalm 83:18 [Luke 1:32]; [John 5:43]; Isaiah 54:13 [John 6:45]; Matthew 5:48 [Leviticus 11:44; 19:2]; John 8:54 [Exodus 20:5; 23:19; Deuteronomy 4:31; 5:9; 6:4...and a host of other scriptures]; 2 Samuel 7:8,11,12,14 [Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; 23:5; Hebrews 1:5; Luke 1:32]; Deuteronomy 6:4 [John 17:1,3; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Acts 2:36]; Psalm 118:26 & Deuteronomy 18:19 [Matthew 21:9; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; 19:38; John 12:13; John 5:4; 12:49,50; 14:10,24; Acts 3:23].
See our study: "Jesus is Not Jehovah"

While we believe the name given the Son in Isaiah 9:6 describes the God and Father of Jesus, all the titles as given the most translations of Isaiah 9:6 could be given to Jesus by his God and Father, Jehovah, just as Jehovah gives to the Son the throne of David. (Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:32) Such names or titles applied to Jesus, however, does not mean that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into, such titles any thought that Jesus is the Most High Jehovah.

If applied to Jesus, the title of everlasting father in Isaiah 9:6 would have to be understood as not the same title or office of Jehovah as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. Jesus is never called the Father of the church, the spirit-begotten sons of God, although he does refer to his followers at times as sons (children), that is, as children belonging to God, or to the light of God which was in himself as the image of God, which light was also to be reflected in his followers. -- Matthew 5:14,45; 10:24; Luke 6:35; 16:8; John 8:12; 9:5; 11:9; 12:35,36; 13:33; 2 Corinthians 4:4,6.

Various Translations

One suggestion as to how this could be translated is: "Wonderful! Counselor of God! Mighty Man! My Father is Forever! Prince of Peace!" However, if we should render it without "El" separated from "GIBBOR" by an exclamation mark, it could be rendered: "Wonderful Counselor of God! Mighty Man! Father of the ages! Prince of Peace!" (This rendering was originally obtained from a website, but apparently, the site no longer exists.)

Here is another rendering of the verse: "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has called (Pele-Joez-el-gibbor-abia-ad-Sar-Shalom) "The Mighty God is planning grace, the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler." This would make the application to Jehovah who provides the ruler.

Some other translations:
  • For we have a child born to us, a son given to us,—and dominion rests on his shoulder, and he is named Wonder-Counselor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace. -- The Bible in Living English.
  • For a boy has been born for us, a son given to us to bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder; and he shall be called in purpose wonderful, in battle God-like, Father for all time, (a) Prince of peace.. -- New English Bible
  • For a child has been born to us, a son is given to us; he will bear the symbol of dominion on his shoulder, and his title will be: Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty Hero, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. -- Revised English Bible;
  • Isaiah 9:6 - For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. -- Brenton Translation of the [Christianized] Septuagint (LXX)

Regardless of how one translates it, it still does not mean that the one being given by God is God Almighty himself, or that the one to whom God is giving the dominion is God Almighty himself, as we have already shown in the earlier paragraphs.

For links to some of our studies related to the above:

Mighty God

Reference: