Friday, December 30, 2016

Zechariah 2:11 - Jehovah Sends Jehovah?

It is being claimed that Zechariah 2:11 is proof that Jehovah sends Himself, and that thus, Jehovah is more than one person. Actually, as we will demonstrate, our trinitarian neighbors have to add to this and read into this their trinitarian philosophies.

We should note that the ancient Hebrew did not have punctuation. We have to be careful in understanding who is saying what. Any punctuation found in copies or translations has been supplied by men. Once one understands who is speaking which words, one can properly add quote marks to these verses. We believe the verses involved should be punctuated as follows:
Zechariah 2:8 For this is what Jehovah of hosts says (for glory he has sent me to the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye):
Zechariah 2:9 "Behold, I will shake my hand against them, and they will become spoil for their servants." Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me.
Zechariah 2:10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says Jehovah.
Zechariah 2:11 Many nations will be joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will become my people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me to you.
Thus the angel is the one who says: "Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me." This statement is sandwiched between two quotes from Jehovah, one before: "For surely I will shake my hand against them, and they will become spoil for their servants," and the other after: "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst."

Earlier we see that an angel of Jehovah is speaking and then another angel appears who begins to speak. (Zechariah 1:12; 2:1,3) It is this angel that is speaking in verses 8 through 11. He speaks of himself as being sent by Jehovah in verse 11. Many Bible Students believe that this angel is Jesus -- or, at least, represents Jesus typically.

The New American Catholic Bible renders these verses this way (without identifying exactly who is saying what, except for the parenthetical phrase):
For thus said the LORD of hosts (after he had already sent me) concerning the nations that have plundered you: Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. See I wave my hand over them; they become plunder for their slaves. Thus you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daugher of Zion! See, I am coming to dwell among you, says the LORD. Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day, and they shall be his people, and he will dwell among you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
Note that this is speaking of when many nations are joined to Jehovah which takes place in the millennial age, when Satan deceives the nations no more. (Revelation 20:3; Isaiah 25:7,8; 2:2,3) This is done through Jesus. (Acts 17:31) At that time also the New Jerusalem will belong to Jesus and be his people; Jesus will dwell in the midst of New Jerusalem, even as Jehovah will also dwell with New Jerusalem and all mankind. (Revelation 21:1-5) God's Kingdom with Jesus ruling as King will be enlarged to include all nations, not merely Israel. -- Jeremiah 12:14-17; Romans 4:13; Zechariah 8:20-21; Isaiah 2:3; Micah 4:2.
"Jehovah your God is one Jehovah." -- Deuteronomy 6:4

He is not two or three Jehovahs, as though there can be one Jehovah who sends another Jehovah.

The one Jehovah (the Father, the only true God -- John 17:1,3) says to the Lord of David: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. These scriptures in themselves prove that Jesus is NOT Jehovah. -- Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Peter 3:22

Only if one runs all that is stated together without giving recognition to who is saying what could one read into the verses that Jehovah is sending Jehovah. Common sense should tell us that the angel is speaking and quotes Jehovah, and speaks of himself at other times. What we have presented is the default reasoning: that the angel is speaking and quoting Jehovah while he speaks. One can find quotes like this in Psalms and many times in the writings of the prophets, so it is nothing at all unusual. We are just called upon to use our common sense, and not be blinded by preconceived doctrine so as to read into the verses something that is not there.

For example, Isaiah 8:1-3. One could read verse three as a continuation of the quotation of Jehovah's words in verse one, thus making it appear that Jehovah is the one who went to the prophetess, but common sense tells us that Isaiah stopped quoting Jehovah and began referring to himself. Of course, if one were convinced that Isaiah was Jehovah himself, one could read this as saying that Jehovah went to the prophetess. Common sense tells us otherwise.

The second Psalm is another example. David, of course, is speaking, but he quotes both Jehovah and Jesus as speaking. If one were to run all these verses together without making proper qualifications as to who is speaking, one could even conclude that David is Jehovah. Of course, our common sense tell us that David speaks as himself at times, and then quotes Jehovah and Jesus, and many translations make this apparent by adding punctuation.

Likewise in Psalm 46. The Psalmist speaks, saying:

Psalm 46:9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth. He breaks the bow, and cuts the spear apart. He burns the chariots in the fire.
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth.
Psalm 46:11 Jehovah of Hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our refuge.

If one wanted to believe that this Psalmist was God, one could disregard the fact that he is quoting Jehovah in verse 10, so as to claim that the Psalmist was himself speaking as God. *The World English* translation and many other translations do supply quotes for verse 10, thus designating these words are the Psalmist's quote of God.

What we do not find in Zechariah 2 is any reference to two or three persons in Jehovah, or that Jesus is one person of Jehovah who sent by another person of Jehovah. Such an idea has to be imagined, assumed and then read into what is being said.

Wednesday, December 28, 2016

Revelation 17:14 - Lord of Lords and King of Kings; Revelation 19:16

These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings. They also will overcome who are with him, called and chosen and faithful." -- Revelation 17:14.
He has on his garment and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." -- Revelation 19:16
World English Bible translation

Some object that the titles Lord of lords and King of kings only apply to Jehovah. Jehovah is spoken of a "Lord of lords" in Deuteronomy 10:17 and Psalm 136:3. The expression, "lord of lords" simply signifies one who is "lord" over others who are also "lords". In the case of Jehovah, however, he is the "Supreme" Lord who is lord over others who are also lords.
However, any one who is a Lord over others who are also lords can hold the title "Lord of lords." Another way of expressing "Lord of lords" is "overlord."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/overlord

Yes, there can be two and even many who can hold the title of "Lord of lords". It is similar to the title "King of kings." Anyone who is a king over others who are also kings can hold the title "King of kings."

Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect and so forth. -- Ezra 7:12, World English

For thus says the Lord Yahweh [Jehovah]: Behold, I will bring on Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people. -- Ezekiel 26:7, World English.

You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory. -- Daniel 2:37, World English

Jesus is made "lord" by Jehovah, the only true God; He is made lord over the overcomers who also become lords (rulers) and kings, and thus he has the title "Lord of lords" and "King of kings". -- Psalm 2:6,8; Daniel 7:21,27; Acts 2:38; Ephesians 1:22; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 1:9; Revelation 3:21; 5:10; 20:6.

Likewise, it is Jehovah who makes Jesus "King" in Zion.  (Psalms 2:6; 45:6; Daniel 7:13,14; Isaiah 9:7; Matthew 28:18; Luke 1:32; Acts 2:34-36; 5:30,31; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:3,17-26; Philippians 2:9-11) Jehovah is king because he is the Supreme Being, and no one has to install him as being King.

In the Bible, however, only the Most High, Jehovah, holds the title "God of gods".  (Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalm 136:2; Daniel 2:47: 11:36) Jehovah is God over others who are "gods", especially the "angels" (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) and also the "gods" spoken of in Psalm 82:1,6; John 10:34,35.

The term "lord", of itself, is a more general term, and can be applied to many people who are in some way a ruler, teacher, etc, and even a more general way as respect for a man, such as with the meaning of "sir", or "mister".

Hebrew words for "lord" as found in the Masoretic text:
Adonai:
Mare':
If these words are used in the New Testament, they are usually rendered under forms of the word Kurios. The problem in the New Testament, however, is that usually, in the manuscripts as we have them, the Holy Name of God has been changed to forms of the word Kurios, causing a confusion of the word "Kurios" with the Holy Name. In reality, the Holy Name of God does not mean the same thing as Kurios, and Jehovah never authorized anyone to change his name to Kurios. Nevertheless, many have misused this in their efforts to make the claim that Jesus is Jehovah.







Tuesday, December 27, 2016

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Jesus is Lord

Does this scripture mean that one with God's Holy Spirit identifies Jesus as Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Therefore I make known to you that no man speaking by God's Spirit says, "Jesus is accursed." No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," but by the Holy Spirit. -- 1 Corinthians 12:3, World English.
This scripture is often misused to claim that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Some claim that in the expression "Jesus is Lord", the word "Lord" means "Jehovah". Some note that Johann Christian Reichardt's translation of the New Testament into Hebrew has the tetragrammaton, thus making it appear to say, "Jesus is Jehovah." From that it is evidently assumed that Paul was saying that one can only say that Jesus is Jehovah by means of the Holy Spirit.

However, Reichardt's placement of the tetragrammaton into 1 Corinthians 12:3 was evidently deliberately done in order to make it appear that Jesus is Jehovah. Therefore, the whole basis is circular reasoning, in effect, saying that since we believe that Jesus is Jehovah, then we believe that "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 12:3 means "Jehovah", and therefore we believe that Paul said that unless you say that Jesus is Jehovah that you do not have God's spirit.

Some claim that forms of the Greek word transliterated "KURIOS" in the New Testament always means "Jehovah". And thus, from that reasoning, every time a form of the word "KURIOS" is used of Jesus in the Bible, they reason that Jesus is being called "Jehovah", the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. -- Exodus 3:14,15.

In reality, KURIOS does not mean Jehovah, although it can be used of Jehovah, as a translation of forms of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as "Adon", meaning "Lord" or "Master". Additionally, in the extant NT Greek manuscripts, we find that the Holy Name has been changed to forms of "Kurios", but this does not mean that every time the word "Kurios" appears in the New Testament, that it means that is being used as a substitute for "Jehovah"..

Bullinger gives the following instances in which forms of "Kurios" are applied in the Gospels to others than Jehovah or Jesus:

With the Article (ho Kurios), emphasizing ownership. Occurs fourty-two times: twenty-one times in Matthew 10:24,25; 15:27; 18:25,27,31,32,34; 20:8; 21:40; 24:45,46,48,50; 25:18,19,21,21,23,23,26; twice in Mark 12:9; 13:35; sixteen times in Luke 12:36,37,42,43,45,46,47; 14:21,23; 16:3,5,5,8; 19:33; 20:13,15; three times in John 13:16; 15:15,20.
Without the Article (Kurios). Generally in courtesy, emphasizing superior relationship. Occ. Nineteen times. Rendered “Lord” fourteen times (Matthew 18:26; 25:11,11,20,22,24. Luke 13:8,25,25; 14:22; 19:16,18,20,25); “Master” twice (Matthew 6:24. Luke 16:13); “Sir” four times (Matthew 13:27; 21:30; 27:63. John 12:21).

So what is the importance of recognizing Jesus as "Lord"? How is it that Jesus is "Lord" if he is not Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? We read that there is ONE who is unipersonally spoken of as the "one God" who has made Jesus both "Lord" and "Christ" (anointed one). (Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6) Who is this ONE GOD that anointed Jesus? Prophetically, Jesus is quoted as stating, "Jehovah ... has anointed me." (Isaiah 61:1) It is thus the Lord Jehovah who anointed Jesus, and who has made Jesus both "Lord" and "Christ".

One cannot be a child of God if one does not recognize that Jesus is the one whom Jehovah has made lord; Jesus is the only way to the God and Father of Jesus. There is no other way. -- John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Ephesians 2:18.

Thus, it is imperative that we, if we would be sons of God (John 1:12), should recognize Jesus as our Lord, the one whom Jehovah appointed as our shepherd. (Ezekiel 34:23) This does not mean that we should be saying, "Jesus is Jehovah".

Jesus is Lord because the only true God (John 17:1,3) has made him lord. The only true God did not make Jesus the only true God. -- Psalm 45:7; Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; Hebrews 1:9.

The "one God" of the Christian is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 1:3; 4:6; 1 Timothy 2:5.

Deuteronomy 7:9 does not say "the Lord" whom God made Lord is God. It says: "Know therefore that Yahweh your God, he is God, the faithful God." (World English) It is this Yahweh (Jehovah), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who raised up Jesus as the prophet like Moses. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; John 17:1,3; Acts 3:13-23; Hebrews 1:1,2.

Jesus worshiped and served Jehovah as his God. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 6:16; Matthew 4:7; Matthew 4:10 [Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20]; Luke 4:8; Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23; Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6; Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.


"Most High" Scriptures

The following is a list of all Scriptures from the World English Bible translation that contain the phrase "Most High," demonstrating that the God of Jesus is the only "Most High," and Jesus is the Son of the Most High. Jesus is never called the "Most High", although Jesus is presented as the Son of the Most High. It is only used of the God and Father of Jesus, although Jesus is presented as the Son of the Most High.


The "Holy Name" is presented as "Yahweh" in the Old Testament of this version of the Bible.


Genesis 14:18 - Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was priest of God Most High.

Ellicott states concerning this verse."In Melchizedek we have a type of Christ (Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:6; Hebrews 5:10; Hebrews 7:1-21)." Just as Melchizedek was priest of God Most High, so Jesus is the priest of God Most High. (Hebrews 2:17; 5:6-10; 6:20; 7:11-28) Thus, the default reasoning is that Jesus is not God Most High whom he serves as priest.

Genesis 14:19 - He blessed him, and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth:

The expression "Blessed be Abram of God Most High" is speaking of Abram's being being blessed from, or by, God Most High. The thought of the Hebrew is that the blessing of Abram was to come from God Most High. Many translations do supply "by" rather than "of", or in some way make it understood that the blessing was to come from God Most High.

Abram here appears to be a type of those who put faith in Jesus. -- Galatians 3:9.  

Genesis 14:20 - and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand." Abram gave him a tenth of all. *** rest needs to be edited with comments.

Genesis 14:22 - Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have lifted up my hand to Yahweh, God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth,

Numbers 24:16 - He says, who hears the words of God, Knows the knowledge of the Most High, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, and having his eyes open:

Deuteronomy 32:8 - When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, When he separated the children of men, He set the bounds of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel.

2 Samuel 22:14 - Yahweh thundered from heaven, The Most High uttered his voice.

Psalms 7:17 - I will give thanks to Yahweh according to his righteousness, And will sing praise to the name of Yahweh Most High.

Psalms 9:2 - I will be glad and rejoice in you. I will sing praise to your name, you Most High.

Psalms 18:13 - Yahweh also thundered in the sky, The Most High uttered his voice, Hailstones and coals of fire.

Psalms 21:7 - For the king trusts in Yahweh. Through the lovingkindness of the Most High, he shall not be moved.

Psalms 46:4 - There is a river, the streams of which make the city of God glad, The holy place of the tents of the Most High.

Psalms 47:2 - For Yahweh Most High is awesome. He is a great King over all the earth.

Psalms 50:14 - Offer to God the sacrifice of thanksgiving. Pay your vows to the Most High.

Psalms 57:2 - I cry out to God Most High, To God who accomplishes my requests for me.

Psalms 73:11 - They say, "How does God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?"

Psalms 77:10 - Then I thought, "I will appeal to this: The years of the right hand of the Most High."

Psalms 78:17 - Yet they still went on to sin against him, To rebel against the Most High in the desert.

Psalms 78:35 - They remembered that God was their rock, The Most High God their redeemer.

Psalms 78:56 - Yet they tempted and rebelled against the Most High God, And didn't keep his testimonies;

Psalms 82:6 - I said, "You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

Psalms 83:18 - That they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, Are the Most High over all the earth.

Psalms 87:5 - Yes, of Zion it will be said, "This one and that one was born in her;" The Most High himself will establish her.

Psalms 91:1 - He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

Psalms 91:9 - For you, Yahweh, are my refuge! You have made the Most High your habitation.

Psalms 92:1 - <> It is a good thing to give thanks to Yahweh, To sing praises to your name, Most High;

Psalms 97:9 - For you, Yahweh, are most high above all the earth. You are exalted far above all gods.

Psalms 107:11 - Because they rebelled against the words of God, And condemned the counsel of the Most High.

Isaiah 14:14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.

Lamentations 3:35 - To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High,

Lamentations 3:38 - Doesn't evil and good come out of the mouth of the Most High?

Daniel 3:26 - Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace: he spoke and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, you servants of the Most High God, come forth, and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego came forth out of the midst of the fire.

Daniel 4:2 - It has seemed good to me to show the signs and wonders that the Most High God has worked toward me.

Daniel 4:17 - The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whoever he will, and sets up over it the lowest of men.

Daniel 4:24 - this is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which is come on my lord the king:

Daniel 4:25 - that you shall be driven from men, and your dwelling shall be with the animals of the field, and you shall be made to eat grass as oxen, and shall be wet with the dew of the sky, and seven times shall pass over you; until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whoever he will.

Daniel 4:32 - and you shall be driven from men; and they dwelling shall be with the animals of the field; you shall be made to eat grass as oxen; and seven times shall pass over you; until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whoever he will.

Daniel 4:34 - At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honored him who lives forever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom from generation to generation.

Daniel 5:18 - You king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your father the kingdom, and greatness, and glory, and majesty:

Daniel 5:21 - and he was driven from the sons of men, and his heart was made like the animals', and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys; he was fed with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of the sky; until he knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and that he sets up over it whoever he will.

Daniel 7:18 - But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.

Daniel 7:22 - until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:25 - He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

Daniel 7:27 - The kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole the sky, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Hosea 7:16 - They return, but not to the Most High. They are like a faulty bow. Their princes will fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue. This will be their derision in the land of Egypt.

Hosea 11:7 - My people are determined to turn from me. Though they call to the Most High, He certainly won't exalt them.

Mark 5:7 - and crying out with a loud voice, he said, "What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, don't torment me."

Luke 1:32 - He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give to him the throne of his father, David,

Luke 1:35 - The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one which is born from you will be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:76 - And you, child, will be called a prophet of the Most High, For you will go before the face of the Lord to make ready his ways,

Luke 6:35 - But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.

Luke 8:28 - When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, "What do I have to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torment me!"

Acts 7:48 - However, the Most High doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says,

Acts 16:17 - The same, following after Paul and us, cried out, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation!"

Hebrews 7:1 - For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Monday, December 19, 2016

Isaiah 44:24 - Jehovah Alone Stretched Forth the Heavens

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. -- King James Version

Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the heavens alone; who spreads abroad the earth (who is with me?). -- World English Bible.

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?). -- American Standard Version.

Isaiah 44:24 is often quoted as support for the extra-Biblical trinity doctrine. It is claimed that God was all by himself in the creation of the world of mankind, and therefore there could not have been another person there, not unless the other person was also God himself, as is claimed in the trinity dogma. In reality, there is nothing in Isaiah 44:24 that presents Jehovah as more than one person, and there no scriptural reason to imagine and assume that "Jehovah" in Isaiah 44:24 is not the same one person who is "Jehovah" in Isaiah 66:1. We do not need the extra-Biblical trinity rhetoric about three persons in order for this scripture to be harmonized with other scriptures.

It is often further claimed by many that Jesus is identified as the Creator in John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16,17 and Hebrews 1:10, and thus Jesus must be Jehovah of Isaiah 44:24.

If Jehovah was indeed totally alone at the creation spoken of in Isaiah 44:24, then the most logical reasoning would be that this verse is referring to when he first produced the material universe before He brought forth his firstborn son, but, after that, he most certainly was not alone in the creation of the world of mankind, the heavens and the earth being spoken of in Genesis 1,2. Jesus was indeed present at the beginning of the world that was made through him, as spoken of in Genesis 1:1; John 1:1,3,10; 17:5. So were the angels present during the creation of that "world", with its heavens and earth. (Job 38:4-7 -- Should one also reason that all of these sons of God are also persons of God?) The "world" -- the skies and the land, and all that was in them, was indeed created through, or by means of Jesus. That "world" did not include the angels, since we read in John 1:10 that this that was made through Jesus did not recognize him when he came into the world. On the other hand, even the fallen angels did recognize who Jesus was during the days of his flesh. (Mark 3:11; 5:7; Luke 8:28; Hebrews 5:7) Thus Jesus was evidently brought forth into being as the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15) sometime after the creation of the material universe, but before the beginning of the creation of the world of mankind that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1-2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10 and 17:5.
See "In the Beginning"
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/11/john1beginning.html

From this standpoint, we would have to see that Isaiah 44:24 is not speaking of the creation of the world of mankind, as in Genesis 1:1-2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10; 17:5, and Hebrews 1:10, but rather to the event before that creation, that is, the creation of the material universe itself.

However, even if Isaiah 44:24 should be thought to be speaking of the same creation as the Genesis 1,2, Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1,10; 17:5, and Hebrew 1:10 it would not necessarily follow that the word "alone" as used in that verse would lead to the conclusion that Jesus' presence with Jehovah in that creation would mean that Jesus would have to be Jehovah whom John says that Jesus was with (or toward) in the beginning. The word "alone" is often used in relation to what is being spoken, either as of a kind, or in context.

The word translated "alone" in the World English Bible translation is Strong's #905; it is the same word used of Adam in Genesis 2:18. Of course, we know that Adam was not totally alone, for he had God with whom he could speak; however, as regards a mate or a fellow human, he was alone. -- Genesis 2:20.

When Jacob said to Reuben concerning taking Benjamin to Egypt: "My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone [Strong's #905]." (Genesis 44:28; 44:20) Jacob did not mean that Benjamin was totally alone, but in reference to what he was speaking, his sons by Rachel, whom he loved. (Genesis 29:18,30; 35:24) Jacob did not know that Joseph was still alive, and thought him to be dead.

One could find more references, but the point of these examples is that the word "alone" does not necessarily mean totally alone, but in many cases must be viewed in the context of which it is speaking.

From this standpoint, the context in Isaiah 44:24 shows that Jehovah is talking about the idol-gods and the men who worshiped them. Jehovah was without any of these gods (nor the men who worshiped them) in the creation of the heavens and earth. A comparison scripture shows this:

Jehovah alone did lead him, There was no foreign god with him. -- Deuteronomy 32:12.

Was Jehovah saying here that actually no one else led the nation of Israel? Or is he saying that he was without any of the foreign gods in leading the nation?

Exodus 15:22: Moses led Israel onward from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.

Here we read that Moses led Israel. Should we assume, like our trinitarians neighbors do with Jesus, that Moses is God Almighty, since Jehovah said that he alone led Israel? After all, isn't Moses also called elohim? -- Exodus 7:1.

Now, let us look at one more scripture:

Psalm 77:20: You led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Here we read that Jehovah led his people by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Thus we can realize that Jehovah alone did lead them, but that he did so by the hand of Moses and Aaron. Likewise, Jehovah alone is the creator, yet he made the creation by the hand of Jesus.

The context of Isaiah 44:24 shows he was possibly comparing himself to the people of Israel here on earth and the idols they were making. (verses 1-23) None of these people who were forming these idols nor any of these formed idols were with Jehovah in the creation. So from this standpoint, even if Jehovah's words are speaking of the same creation as spoken of in John 1:1, it is not saying that Jehovah was not using Jesus in the instrument of creation, but rather that the idols gods of the nations were not with him at that creation.

In verse 19 it says "None calls to mind, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say,..." Taken out of context, this appears to be saying that there is no one [which taken to extremes could include even the angels] that calls to mind, etc. The context tells us that it is speaking of those who form idols from wood, however.

The word translated "alone" in Isaiah 44:24 is the Hebrew word bad (Strong's Hebrew #905). It is a word that used in comparison, and does not necessarily mean totally alone, but rather alone in relation to what is being spoken of. (Genesis 2:18; 32:24; Judges 6:40) Thus, in Isaiah 44:24 Jehovah could be seen in comparison with the idol-gods spoken of in the context (Isiah 44:9-20); only Jehovah stretched forth the heavens and spread abroad the earth. None of the idol-gods were with him in this.

Another point: Assuming that Isaiah 44:24 is speaking of the beginning of creation of the world of mankind as in John 1:1,10, if the last phrase of Isaiah 44:24 ("who is with me?") should be read to mean there was absolutely no one present when Jehovah spread abroad the earth, then it would contradict the scriptures in Job, which show that the angels were present at the creation of earth (as related to that spoken of in Genesis 1,2, and John 1:1,10; 17:5. At the beginning of creation spoken of in Mark 10:6, we do find that there were spirit sons of God at least present: "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." -- Job 38:4-7; see also Job 1:6; 2:1,2.

Thus we conclude that Jehovah could have been asking, "Who of these gods or their makers were with me when I created the heavens and the earth?"

Something else we need to note in Mark 10:6: Jesus says God (Jehovah -- whom he sits at the right hand of: Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22) is the maker referred to here in creation: "But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female." Thus only Jehovah is properly called the "Creator". -- Isaiah 40:28.

Furthermore, a business owner may say that he built his business all by himself, meaning that he was the one who originated the plans and and the force behind the business' growth. He does not mean that he had absolutely no one working with him in his business.

The scriptures abound with cases where Jehovah uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions since he was the directing force. -- Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.

Jesus is not directly called creator, yet he is the means by which Jehovah carried out his creation. In Mark 10:6, Jesus says of God (Jehovah -- whom he sits at the right hand of -- Psalm 110:1; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22) is the maker in creation: "But from the beginning of creation God made them male and female." Thus only Jehovah is properly called the "Creator". -- Isaiah 40:28.
See "Is Jesus the Creator?"

As we stated at the beginning, however, Isaiah 44:24 is probably referring to an event before the creation spoken of in John 1:1-3,10, Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:10, etc.

Regardless, we find nothing in Isaiah 44:24 that would give us any reason to add to the scriptures the extra-Biblical story about three persons in one being, nor any idea that Jesus is Jehovah his God.

See also:

Does Jehovah Speak to Jehovah? -- Includes a discussion of Hebrews 1:10, as related to that which made by the hand of Jesus.
Beginnings in the Bible

--- Ronald R. Day, Sr.

Originally published April 2009; Updated and republished November 2014; Updated February, 2020; July, 2022.

Sunday, December 18, 2016

John 1:3 - The World Made Through the Logos

(All Greek and Hebrew words are presented with English transliterations. We do not claim that the transliterations actually represent the original Koine Greek or the ancient Hebrew pronunciations.)

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.  -- John 1:3, World English.

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. -- John 1:10, World English.

The claim is often made that John 1:3 tells us that without Jesus Christ (the Word) absolutely nothing was created.  An author on one site states:

Some heretical cults deny Christ’s eternal existence, claiming that He was a created Being. In contrast to this false doctrine, the Bible presents Him as the uncreated Creator: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). In the beginning He was not created or made. In the beginning He already was (John 1:1-2)! The Apostle Paul declares that “He is before all things” (Col. 1:17)."

Thus, according to this reasoning, Jesus could not be created since absolutely nothing was created without him. However, this reasoning evidently overlooks that the other spirit "sons of God" were also present at the beginning of the world mankind that God created through his firstborn Son. -- Job 38:4-7; John 1:10.

The fact is that there is nothing in John 1:3 that presents Jesus as uncreated; he is being presented as the instrument that God used in the creation being spoken of.

We wish to first point out that the word "creator" is never used of Jesus in the Bible.  The Bible nowhere, not even once, presents Jesus as the "uncreated Creator." That thought is being imagined, assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures. Jesus himself applied the words "creator" and "creation" to his God and Father, but never to himself.  -- Mark 10:6; 13:19.

The verse reads from the Westcott & Hort Interlinear:

panta di autou egeneto kai chwris autou
ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM
3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3
egeneto oude hen
CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING).
1096 3761 1520
ho gegonen
WHICH HAS COME TO BE
3739 1096
Westcott & Hort Interlinear

Actually, what John said was that without the Word not one was created. Notice that the words "things" and "thing" are in parenthesis above. This is because those words are not actually in the Greek text. Adding these words at least appears to most readers to make it appear to be all-inclusive of absolutely everything created.

Regardless, the creation being spoken of was "of God" -- the God and Father of Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:31;  Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3) through,  by means of,  Jesus.  -- 1 Corinthians 8:6.

The word "one" is in Greek neuter form -- hen -- of the word "heis"; and "all" -- Greek, panta  -- is a form of the Greek "pas". (The words "things" and "thing" are added by the translators.)

Another form of the Greek word "pas" is used in Romans 8:22: "For we know that all [pasa] creation groans and travails in pain together until now." The "all creation" or "whole creation" that is being referred to in Romans 8:22 does not include the angels, the stars, the sun, the moon, etc., but rather it refers only to the world of mankind that has been subjected to vanity (Romans 8:20) due to Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12-19) Thus, absolutely "all creation" in the universe is not included in "all creation", neither in Romans 8:20, nor in what is said in John 1:3. Indeed, if one does a study of the usage of all forms of the word "pas" in the New Testament, one will see that this word rarely means absolutely everything in the universe, but that it is always understood in the context as well as common evidence. John 1:10 indicates that in John 1:3, the "all" that is being referred to is the world of mankind, as it is in Romans 8:22.  The only true God (John 17:1,3) is the Creator (Mark 10:6; 13:19); the prehuman Jesus is the instrument -- the agent -- that the Creator used to bring into being the creation that is being spoken of.

Additionally, the negative usage of terms such as "not one" is also subject to what is being spoken of. In Hebrews 2:8, for instance, in speaking of what has been subjected to man as spoken of in Psalm 8:6, we read: "For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now [due to the sin of Adam, man has been subjected to futility -- Romans 5:12-19; 8:20] we don't see all things subjected to him, yet." Note that the scripture says that God left nothing that is not subject to him (man). Does this mean that God subjected absolutely everything in the entire universe to man? Absolutely not! Psalm 8:7,8 describes the "all things" that were subjected to man, which corresponds with Genesis 1:26,28. All that was subjected to man pertains to all the earth, not absolutely all in the universe.

The Greek word "hen" refers to "the beginning" spoken of in John 1:1, which is the beginning, not of the universe, but of the world (kosmos spoken of in John 1:10), the six days of the creation of the land (earth) and the sky (heavens) and the things in them as seen from the surface of the planet. (Genesis 1:1,3-31; Exodus 20:11; 31:17)

The Greek "hen" -- one --  is a neuter adjective and probably refers to the Greek noun plasma or poiema, that is, of being formed.

The Greek word "panta" -- all -- always looks to the context and common evidence for what is included or excluded. The all being referred to is that which is spoken of as "the beginning",  all pertaining to the six days of creation.

See also our study:
Panta and Kosmos

The beginning in John 1:1 is the same "beginning" that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1. That "beginning" is shown by Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17 to be the entire "six days" spoken of in Genesis 1:3-31. (This "beginning" then is after Yahweh had created the universe.) The "beginning" is not in reference to the "beginning" of the material universe, and not even the planet earth itself. We need to realize that the word "earth" has more than one meaning in the scriptures, and also that the word heaven(s) has more than one meaning. The heavens where God and the angels live (1 Kings 8:30,39; 2 Chronicles 20:6; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 5:16,45,48; 6:1,9; 18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Mark 12:25; 13:32; ) already existed before that first day, but the heavens -- the sky -- above the dry land and the things and living creatures related to that "heavens" did not begin to exist until the second "day". (Genesis 1:6-8) Before the creative acts of 'day one' began, the planet earth already "was" (Genesis 1:2), but the "earth" -- the dry land -- upon that planet, and the things included upon that earth, did not begin to appear until the third day. (Genesis 1:9-13) It is the "heavens and earth" that are described as being created during the six days that is the "beginning" that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1, and also in John 1:1.

When speaking of creation, what does the expression "the beginning" usually refer to in the New Testament? Matthew 19:4; Mark 10:6 refer to "the beginning" in reference to the creation of the man and woman, which took place on the sixth day of creation as related in Genesis 1:26-31. In Matthew 19:8 "the beginning" refers to the original marriage arrangement as provided by God after creating Eve, which was also part of the sixth day of creation. Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 refer to the beginning of the world (kosmos); this world is described in John 1:10 as the world into which the Word came, but which world did not recognize the Word in their midst. The Greek word "kosmos" as used in the Bible, almost always refers to the world existing upon the planet earth; indeed, we have no reference where is it is used to refer to the entire universe. Thus, it is speaking of the world of mankind, not the entire material universe, nor of the angels. This is the "world" that the Word came into, and that did not recognize him. (John 1:10) Thus, it can be seen that the NT writers in connection with "the beginning" of creation understood that this beginning was in reference to things upon the planet earth, not to the entire universe itself.

Please note that the 'creation' spoken of in Colossians 1:15,16 includes the living creation both in heaven and earth, while the beginning spoken of in John 1:1 and the creation spoken of in John 1:3,10 refer only to the world  (Kosmos) of mankind, the creation that has been subjected to vanity, futility, because of Adam's sin. -- Romans 5:12, 8:20.

Since the angels were already in the existence (Job 38:4-7) at the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, we conclude the created spirit beings were created before that "beginning", which would include Jesus as the firstborn. (Colossians 1:15) In Isaiah 44:24, however, we read of the creation of the material universe (the big bang?), and it appears that Yahweh was alone when he created the material universe; therefore we conclude the material universe was created before the spirit world. Thus, the first of the creations recorded in the Bible would be the material universe; the second -- but the first living creature would be the pre-human Jesus; then through the prehuman Jesus, the rest of the living dominions, both visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth, were created through, by means of, the prehuman Jesus, so that Jesus was created before all.  -- Colossians 1:16,17.

For links to more of our studies related to Jesus and Creation:

Jesus and Creation

For links to some of our studies related to creation:

Creation

**********



Trinity Definitions

A mistake many Bible Students and JWs (and some others) often make is defining the trinity as "three gods in one person", or "three gods in one god," which causes trinitarians to herald an accusation of foul play, and from that they often give the impression that none of our arguments are valid. The proper definition, as given by them, is three persons in one God, or some prefer, God in three persons, not three gods in one person, or three gods in one God, or three beings in one God, etc.

Nevertheless, trinitarians likewise make the mistake of assuming that everyone should accept their re-definitions of the word person and other unique terminiology that is used to accommodate their unique explanations as a factual truth, and often cry foul play when one who doesn't believe in the trinity would refer to Jesus and his Father in such a manner that does not recognize their definitions. In other words, to one who doesn't believe in the trinitarian definitions, the end result of saying that the Father is God (Supreme Being), the Son is God (Supreme Being), and the Holy Spirit is God (Supreme Being), would be that there are three Supreme Beings -- three Gods. While we are not with the WTS, we notice that Doug Mason, in the introduction to his book, The Trinity Exposed, states: "The WTS portrays “God” in terms of power, superior authority, rulership, and activities. The Trinitarian defines “God” in terms of nature and essence."

Although from time to time some individual trinitarian may refer to the trinity as three gods in one god, this is not the way so-called "orthodox" indoctrinated trinitarians believe or reason on it, and they claim that when we present their Godhead in this manner, we are misrepresenting them. Indeed, when we present our view that Jesus is sent by Yahweh, anointed by Yahweh, exalted by Yahweh, etc., and therefore not Yahweh, they may claim we are misrepresenting their views (even though we present [b][i]our[/i][/b] view, not theirs), for they claim that Jesus is sent by Yahweh, as Yahweh represents the Father, but that Jesus is also Yahweh, as Jesus is also claimed to be represented in the alleged second person of the trinity. Of course, we cannot present our view of the matter without running into this; but trinitarians will often object and use this as excuse to discredit our arguments by claiming that we are misrepresenting the trinity.
We give below some definitions of terms, as given by trinitarian resources:
The doctrine of the Trinity is so complex yet so simple as to demand a divine origin for the Bible. The Trinity is three persons in one God. Stated it is simple yet the explanation has evaded man since the subject was undertaken for study. We cannot explain the how of the Trinity only the fact of it.
The work each member of the Trinity is involved in is also very complicated - the Fatherhood of God, or the perfections of Christ. Man cannot adequately explain these things so how could he devise them? -- Derickson's Notes on Theology, by Stanley L. Derickson, 1992, page 128.

God is one. God is three. There is one God and within God are three personalities. There is one essence and there is one nature. There are three persons.
The term "God" normally in Scripture relates to, not a particular person of the Trinity, but to the essence and nature of God. It refers to "deity." There are times when "God" is used and elsewhere in the context the Word identifies "God" as one particular person of the Trinity. -- Derickson, page 145.

Essence is that which gives attributes residence and is the proof of existence. Thiessen mentions of essence, ". . .that which underlies all outward manifestation; the reality itself, whether material or immaterial; the substratum of anything that in which the qualities of attributes inhere." (Thiessen, Henry C.; "Lectures In Systematic Theology"; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1949, p 119)

Being: Being is a state of existence and essence.
Person: Person is a term that defines the totality of essence and being.
Nature: Nature is the outworking of essence and attributes. It is the total of all that a being is.
Attributes: Attributes are the qualities of essence.
Personality: Personality is that which causes distinctness between different essences. -- Derickson, page 145

Ousia
Ousia is a noun form which is a derivative of the feminine form of the present participle of the verb "to be" (eimi) for which the participle is ousa. Its meaning is: that which is one's own, one's property, substance; condition, state. In the formula for the doctrine of the Trinity God's principle form or being is "one ousia".

Hypostasis
The Greek is literally hupostasis, but the "u" in a Greek word frequently comes into English as a "y", so that is often given as "hypostasis". It is a word which combines a preposition, "hupo" (or hypo, as in hypodermic which translates to mean under- skin) and a noun derived from the participle of the verb histamai. "Stasis", the participle, means a standing, position, post, station, state. Thus hypostasis literally means "understanding" In the classical expression for the doctrine of the Trinity God is said to have three hypostases and one ousia. The difficulty with these two words is that sometimes the usage is reversed by the Greek Fathers and hypostasis is used to express the unity of God. Another word, prosopon, is then used in place of hypostasis.
****
We can diagram the different formulas for the doctrine of the Trinity as they move linguistically.
One Ousia = One Hypostasis = One Substantia = One Substance
Three Hypostases = Three Prosopa = Three Personae = three persons
You should remember, however, the understanding of the use of these terms should begin from a Neo-Platonic point of view. These are the essence, idea or ideal, not the concrete realities we usually associate with the words like substance and persons. Our difficulties are compounded because different authors among the Church Fathers used the same words in different ways or with different nuances. Moreover, the words shift in meaning as they are translated from Greek to Latin and they shift even more when they are interpreted from our viewpoint in the twentieth century.
Obtained from:
http://www.sewanee.edu/Theology/patristicsw/f220/p224.html
Regarding the definitions they give for substance and person, in reality we find it difficult to get any exactness from them on definitions of the terms used, for the definitions themselves are not clear so as to distinguish one from the other. It seems that the trinitarian philosophies change the meaning slightly depending on the context, so as to make their philosophy fit the context. Thus, according to many of them, hypostasis in Hebrews 1:3 does not mean "person", but it means "substance"; thus, in Athanasian style, they will present whatever word they wish with whatever meaning they wish to give it in order to have the word fit the added-on trinitarian dogma.

While in fact in common usage each person is a being with his own individual essence -- substance, sentient being, the trinitarians have come up with a completely new definition of being, using terms such as substance and essence in a somewhat mystical manner that only apply to their idea of a triune Godhead. There is a word used in the Bible that can be translated "substance" -- ousia (Strong's #5607), but it is not used in the Bible in any way like the trinitarians use it. It only appears twice: Luke 15:12,13 (the KJV translates it as "goods" and "substance"). It is true that all human beings share in having the same substance of being human flesh; this does not make them all one being, however, as each person is a separate human being. Likewise, we can say that Jesus shares with the father in being of the spirit substance; this does not make him the same being as his Father.

In regard to God, they often state that essence means something like "everything that God is". This is the thought behind the translation of John 1:1 in the New English Bible: "what God was, the Word was". Vaguely, they give to the term "divine nature" something beyond its usage in the Bible, as to denote uncreated, omnipotent, ominiscient, eternal (past and future), etc.

However in actual application, they run into trouble with this, for God is the father of Jesus; thus using the idea that Jesus is all that God is, then Jesus must be the Father of Jesus, etc. This, of course, is not what trinitarians believe (although in some vague way modalists do believe that Jesus is his own Father).

Nor has God received from his father power and authority, as Jesus has received such from the one true Supreme Being, his Father. There are probably a lot of points that show that Jesus is not everything that Yahweh, his Father is, nor is Yahweh everything that Jesus is. Of course, trinitarians often fall back onto the argument that Jesus is everything that the essence of God is, which is somewhat circular and still doesn't explain anything.

God is not begotten, by their own admission, but the Son is. Thus the Son does not have the quality of God as being unbegotten. They claim that begotten in reference to his Son means that he is eternally begotten in the past and the future, or some trinitarians have stated that begotten only refers to his "human nature", not his "divine nature" as God.

This is the phrase that is used in Greek however to describe the trinity: "treis hypostaseis en mia ousia", ("three persons in one substance"), or "mia ousia, treis hypostaseis" ("One essence in three hypostases"). It becomes more confusing when one sees the definition of hypostasis:

"Substance, nature, or essence. Refers to each Person of the Trinity's subsistence in the Godhead: Three divine Persons sharing one nature or essence as God."
http://www.xworld.org/DR/Lex-H.html http://www.xworld.org/DR/Lex-M.html http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04784a.htm

As noted earlier, some translations translate the word hypostasis in Hebrews 1:3 as "substance", "being" or "nature" rather than "person", which seems to overlap ousia with hypostasis, rather than make a distinction between the two. In actuality, Hebrews 1:1,3 shows that God is a person -- one hypostasis, not three, and that Jesus is the image of the one person. -- New American Standard, American Standard, New Revised Standard, Revised Standard, Today's English (Good News), etc.

Do trinitarians mean by essence -- substance, form, body, person, qualities of character or qualities of being? It is really difficult to pin them down. Sometimes they use it in one manner, such as "nature" in reference, as in spiritual substance as opposed to material substance, and other times they seem to use it as meaning the qualities of character, such as love, etc., or qualities of being, especially as regarding being uncreated. But if to be everything that God is means that one is uncreated, wouldn't it also mean that one is unbegotten, since this is also a quality of God?

If essence means "being", as it is defined sometimes by them, does it mean that all three persons are the same sentient being? We have never seen them state this as such, but it would seem so, since it is claimed that all three are one omniscient being, which, in effect would mean that they are all one sentient being, having the exact same sentiency. Yet, they claim that there are three totally separate individuals -- persons -- who all are totally and completely the same essence, everything that God is. According to them, Jesus is not part of God -- he is totally and fully God. The Father is not part of God, he is totally and fully God. The holy spirit is not part of God, but totally and fully God. Yet, in contradiction to this, by some of the arguments presented, they would attribute to each person a separate sentiency, each having his own will, etc. It seems that they are not concerned with inconsistencies, claiming that we are not meant to understand the essence of the Godhead, we are only to accept it as revealed by the holy spirit (which, however, no where is such a contradiction ever actualy revealed by the holy spirit). In fact, many of them claim that not to believe this doctrine means that one is thinking only humanly,  and not with the spiritual mind, and thus, they claim, such a person who views God as a totally separate being from the being of Jesus does not have the enlightenment of God's spirit.

In effect, what the trinitarians do is separate a person from being, thus claiming there is one Supreme Being made up of three equal persons. Within the essence of the Supreme Being they claim what they call subordination of two the persons. They claim to distinguish between a subordinatianism of essence (ousia) and a subordinatianism of hypostasis, of order and dignity. They claim that the three hypostases are equal in ousia (substance, being) but two are subordinate in hypostasis. They thus separate hypostasis from ousia in this sense.

Many of them claim that each person (hypostasis) is equal, but if we point out to them the scriptures that show that Jesus is subject to the only true God, they simply claim by adding to the scriptures that their alleged second person of the trinity voluntarily subjects himself to their alleged first person of the trinity, while in substance their three alleged person of their alleged trinity are claimed to be equal. In effect, one of their alleged person of the Supreme Being has another Supreme Being who is the first person of their alleged Supreme Being,  etc.
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263

In summary, the exact definitions seem to be kept in vague, mysterious terms, which can serve the purpose of mystifying the one learning so much that he is awed by the terminology used. And oddly enough, some of them claim that this mysteriousness is even proof of this doctrine is from God, not man.

The "Christian" extra-Biblical trinitarian philosophy with its unique applications of terms is not found anywhere else; even the heathen trinities (trinitarians like to use the word "triad" to describe heathen trinities, although both the heathen "triads" and the so-called Christian trinity are referred to in ancient Greek by the same word, the word often transliterated as trias) do not have such a philosophy. Some of the heathen religions define their trinities almost exactly as "Christian modalist" or "oneness" believers, however.

Given the common application of a person as a living sentient being, the idea of claiming three persons as God does in effect make three gods, but trinitarians deny that the common application applies to the trinitarian Godhead. They will even accuse one who would make such an application to God and Christ of bringing God down to the human level, as though God cannot possibly be one person without being a human.

At any rate, this story about three persons in one being is not found in the Bible; it was contrived after the Bible was written. Trinitarians often don't even seem to realize that they are adding a tremendous amount of extra-Biblical philosophy to the verses they cite for its proof, in order to force this doctrine into scripture. It is true that on many scriptures some assumptions have to be made to have them make sense. We believe that any assumptions should be made in harmony with the entire Bible as a whole rather than adding to the Bible a story about three persons in one being, etc. All the scriptures, once thoroughly examined, can be seen as in complete harmony without adding such a story.

Updated January 3, 2002, RRD