Wednesday, May 17, 2017

Isaiah 6:8 - Who Will Go For Us?

Isaiah 6:8 - And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said: "Here am I; send me."

A trinitarian argues from the above the scripture that Isaiah heard the voice of Yahweh [in eternity past], and is referring to himself as more than one person.

Obviously, there is nothing here about these words being said in "eternity past". Such an idea has to be added to and read into what Isaiah said. If one would be consistent in following such reasoning, one would conclude that Isaiah himself had been hearing these words in "eternity past", and thus that Isaiah himself had existed in "eternity past" so as to be hearing these words in "eternity past".

We believe that Isaiah himself is playing a part in the prophetic role, depicting the church of Jesus who was yet to be. Each believer is depicted as hearing the voice of the Lord, asking, "Whom shall I send", and thus is depicted as responding: "Here am I."

The Masoretic text has "Adonai" (transliterated) where "the Lord" appears in most translations. The claim is made by some that this is one of the places copyists replaced Jehovah (Yahweh) with Adonai, and thus some translations have the Holy Name in the scripture. Nevertheless, the Great Isaiah Scroll does not have the holy name in Isaiah 6:8, but rather the Hebrew characters representing Adoni [transliterated, meaning "my Lord"] or Adonai [Literally, my Lords, used singularly, however, it means superlative or superior "Lord"].

At any rate, it is probable that Isaiah originally meant this to be "my Lord" [adoni], referring to the coming Lord of Isaiah [representing the believer]. From the New Testament, the coming "lord" is shown to be Jesus, the promised Messiah. In such a case, the words in question, who will go for us, appears to be those of Jesus directed toward his God, Jehovah. If so, the "us" refers to both Yahweh and Jesus. The one to "go" for them would be Isaiah (picturing the church individually). The fulfillment of the prophecy supports that ADNY (transliterated) in Isaiah 6:8 is not Jehovah, but Jesus.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said, for he recognized that no one could come to him except that his God and Father should draw such an one to Jesus.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:45 - Everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me.

John 6:65 - No one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.

The "us" would be both Jehovah and Jesus. The one to "go" for them would be represented by Isaiah, individually those who learn of Jehovah and come to Jesus.

However, the Great Isaiah Scroll does have the Hebrew word of God's name in Isaiah 6:11 -- not Adoni or Adonai. Thus it is possible that "the Lord" in Isaiah 6:8 is referring to Jehovah. Assuming that "the Lord" here is Jehovah, then this would only mean that Jehovah is simply speaking to Jesus, saying who will go for us?

Regardless, "us" would still be Yahweh and Jesus, and in no wise would mean that Jesus is Yahweh. If Tom says to his son, "Who will represent us in court?", is Tom saying he and his son are one sentient being?

See also:

Isaiah Saw His Glory

Genesis 1:26 - Let Us and Elohim

By Ronald R. Day

Genesis 1:26 - God [ELOHIM] said [singular verb], "Let us make [plural] man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Our trinitarian neighbors see this scripture as a reference to their trinitarian dogma. It is claimed that ELOHIM, being plural in form, means that their idea of "Godhead" has three persons, and that the plurality of "let us" means that one person of God is speaking to another person of God, using the plural form "us". Some modalists and oneness believers also cite this scripture as proof of an alleged "plurality" in their Godhead consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Obviously, God here is speaking to someone. Normally, if a person says to his friend, "Let us do this or that according to our plans," we do not think that the person who is speaking is speaking to another person of himself. Likewise, in those instances where God says "let us", "we", etc., God is not speaking to another person of Himself, but he is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. Indeed, the default reasoning should be that Jehovah is speaking to someone else who is not Himself.
The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.

The plurality of ELOHIM means "gods", not "persons" or "attributes"; thus, to apply this word to the Creator in plural terms would mean that Jehovah is gods [plural], not persons in one God. Nevertheless, the word in its meaning contains the attribute of mightiness, but this is one attribute, not attributes (plural).

Nevertheless, the scriptures do not apply ELOHIM to Jehovah with plurality, anymore than Jehovah Himself applies ELOHIM to Moses with plurality. (Exodus 7:1) Indeed, if ELOHIM used of Jehovah means that Jehovah is more than one person, then to be consistent, the one making such a claim should also claim that God made Moses more than one person to Pharaoh. When Jesus quoted Exodus 6:3, as recorded in Matthew 22:32, Jesus did not use a plural form of the word THEOS; he uses the singular form.

In reality, like several other Hebrew words, the plural forms of EL can be used in singular contexts to denote what we in English might call the superior or superlative degree. Regarding this usage in Biblical Hebrew (as well as some other ancient languages), scholars often call this the "plural intensive" usage, where a plural form of a word is used in a singular context and thus the plural form is viewed as singular, but is intensified in meaning (similar to the English superior or superlative degree). In other words, the plural form of a word is treated as though it were singular, but only intensified in meaning. In English we do this by adding "er" or "est" to many words, such as high, higher, highest, or we might add "more" or "most" before words. (However, in English, especially in its archaic forms, the plural is often employed as a plural intensive when addressing majesty, a judge, etc., as in "your Majesty", and "your Honour", instead of "thy Majesty" or "thy honour.") Therefore, in Exodus 7:1, Jehovah stated that He was making Moses, not persons, to Pharaoh, but rather one person of superior might (ELOHIM) to Pharaoh.

The point, however, is that ELOHIM is used of the one Jehovah, the "one God" who is the Creator of His people. Jehovah is not more than one Jehovah, nor more than one god, nor is he more than one person, or individual, nor does a Supreme Being consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "Hear, Israel: Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one." "Hasn't one God created us?" -- Deuteronomy 6:4; Malachi 2:10.

So who was Jehovah speaking to as recorded in Genesis 1:26? Although there are some hints in the Old Testament, we have to look to the New Testament for the answer to this. John 1:1,2 tells us that the one who became flesh was with God in the beginning that is spoken of there. That "beginning" is not the beginning of the entire universe, as many have assumed, but it is the "beginning" of the "world" (Greek, Kosmos) that God created through the one called "the Word." (John 1:10) All in this world was made through the one called "the Word". Not one thing (pertaining to the world that was made through the Word) was made without the Word. (John 1:3) This one titled "the Word" became flesh, and came into the world that was made through him, and that world did not recognize him. (John 1:1,2,10) Jesus identified himself as that one who was with the "only true God" before the world of mankind was made. (John 17:1,3,5) "God", whom the Word was with, refers to the One whom Jesus addressed as "the only true God", that is, his God and Father. Jesus was with the only true God, and thus John 1:3,10 is really speaking of Jesus as the one through whom "God" made the world of mankind. Therefore, by comparing spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), we can see that the one whom "the only true God" was addressing in Genesis 1:27 is Jesus.
However, someone may object, doesn’t John 1:1 tell us that, not only was the Word with [or toward, in service of] God, but also that the Word was "God"? Doesn’t this prove the trinitarian idea that God is more than one person? No, it doesn't! It should be obvious, by comparing John 1:1,2 and John 17:1-5, that Jesus was with, or in service of, the only true God. Would John then say that Jesus "was" the only true God whom he was with? John twice states that the Word was with God, thus giving emphasis to this thought. The thought of two persons as the only true God is not inherent in the words of John 1:1,2, but the idea has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what John wrote. One has to imagine and assume that John, in referring to "God" whom the Word was with, does not mean the alleged triune "God", but that it means the first person of the alleged trinity as the Father. We know it is true that "God" whom the Word was with, toward or in service of, is the God and Father of Jesus, because of Jesus’ words as recorded in John 17:1,3,5. However, the part about the Father being a person of a trinity has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, what John wrote in John 1:1,2, and Jesus’ reference to the Father as the "only true God" in John 17:3 has to either be ignored, or in some manner be interpreted (again this is often done by imaginative assumptions being added to and read into what Jesus stated) in order make Jesus’ words still mean that Jesus is a person of the only true God. Likewise, the trinitarian has to imagine, assume, add to, and read into what John said that the Word is the alleged second person of the trinity.

So why would John say that the Word was "God", if we are not to imagine and assume he is a person of the only true God? Is there not only one God? Can Jesus be "God" who is not the only true God? And wouldn’t this mean that there is more than one true God? The answer again lies in comparing spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing (1 Corinthians 2:10-12), not by imagining, adding, and reading into the scripture a lot of assumptions that would make Jesus a person of his God. What is the true scriptural answer to why John would refer to Jesus as God?

It is obvious that John is not referring to Jesus as "God" in the same manner in which he speaks of "God" whom Jesus was with. In other words, it should be obvious that Jesus is not "God" whom he was with, and as mentioned before, John emphasized this by repeating it again in John 1:2. If Jesus is "God" who he was with, or in service of, then Jesus is the Father, since Jesus says that he with his Father, but trinitarians deny that Jesus is the Father.

The Greek word for God is usually transliterated as THEOS, and forms of this word are used twice in John 1:1. Forms of THEOS, in the New Testament, are used to translate forms of the Hebrew word that is often transliterated as EL; it should be apparent that the Hebrew writers of the New Testament were using THEOS in the same manner, and with same meaning, as the Hebrew writers of the Old Testament. In the words recorded at John 10:34,35, was Jesus saying that all the sons of the Most High are persons of the Most High, that they are all the only true God?

What many do not realize is that there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (great); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."

If such Hebraic usage is applied to Jesus (who was with the only true God -- John 17:1,3) in John 1:1, we would have "the Word was mighty," and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginations and assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine, or the oneness doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT before the world of mankind was made. Thus, the scriptural conclusion is that it was this "mighty" one that the only true God addressed in Genesis 1:26, using the term "let us."

One may have many more questions which we have not discussed in this short study. For more study, we recommend:
Other studies may also be found on our sites and pages listed at:
Restoration Light Home Page
Written by Others
We do not necessarily agree with all given by the authors whose writings are linked to below.
Early Church's Understanding of Genesis 1:26 - This is evidently written by a trinitarian.
The following represents links to sites that present the idea that God speaks of Himself as "us" -- we do not agree with that, and recommend the above study: 1 * 2 * 3 *
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Originally published April 12, 2009; Updated and Republished November 25, 2014; Republished May 17, 2017.

Genesis 1:26,27 - Who Is God speaking to?

God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. -- World English Bible

Our provision of references to other authors or web sites does not mean that we endorse all that is stated on those sites, or that we endorse all that is written by these other authors.

Many have claimed that the above scripture is one person of God (Jehovah, Yahweh) speaking to another person of Jehovah. Actually, there is certainly nothing here to give us any reason to think that one person of Jehovah was here speaking to another person of Jehovah. Jehovah was indeed speaking to someone, and other scriptures indicate that this was the pre-human LOGOS, Jesus, who was with the only true God before the world of mankind was made (John 1:1,2; 17:5), and who acted as God's agent in the creation of the world of mankind. (John 1:3,9; Ephesians 3:9) Additionally, there is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in one God, only an indication that Jehovah was speaking to someone who was already in his image and likeness. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

Often many will point to Isaiah 44:24, which speaks of Jehovah's creating the material universe, and claim that this scripture shows that Jehovah was also alone when he created the world of mankind, as recorded in Genesis 1,2. Evidently, Jehovah was alone when he first produced the material universe, but, after that, he most certainly was not alone in the creation of the world of mankind, the heavens and the earth being spoken of in Genesis 1,2.
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See our studies on: In the Beginning
http://creation.reslight.net/the-beginning.html
and
Beginnings in the Bible
http://creation.reslight.net/beginnings.html

Others have suggested that God was speaking to the angels here. The angels were certainly present at the creation of man, for they were the sons of God who rejoiced at earth's creation. (Job 38:4-7) God certainly could have been speaking to the angels here, although the Bible does not directly state that the angels participated in the creation.

We certainly find nothing here to indicate that one person of Jehovah is speaking to another person of Jehovah, or that there is more than one person in Jehovah.

Some of our trinitarian neighbors often make the claim that the plural/singular usage of language in Genesis 1:26,27 gives proof of their trinity doctrine. It has been claimed that when God spoke of "us" in creation, that this indicates that Jehovah is Jesus. Trinitarians claim that this means that there are more than one person in the Creator/God. The usage of the Hebrew word elohim, translated "God" in this verse, is also offered as proof of the trinity, since elohim is plural, not singular. It is also claimed that man -- made in God's image -- is also a trinity, with reference to 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Please see our study on 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

The Word ELOHIM

While Jehovah did create by means of his Son, there is nothing in the word elohim as used in Genesis 1:26 that means a plurality of individuals, anymore than its use of Moses in Exodus 7:1, where Jehovah states to Moses: "See, I have made thee a god [ELOHIM] to Pharaoh." (Webster translation) Moses is certainly not a plurality of individuals. Thus there is definitely nothing in that word that identifies a plurality of individuals. If used to denote plurality, it means gods, nor a multiple of persons in one god.

The Hebrew Scriptures do often use the plural word Elohim in singular settings, usually with the singular article or singular verbs, etc. This has been called the "plural intensive" -- where the plural is used in a singular context. It has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.

As pointed out, Moses is also called elohim -- plural. (Exodus 7:1) The scriptures concerning Moses indicate that elohim, although plural, is applied to the singular person, Moses (who is a type of Jesus -- Deuteronomy 18:18,19; Acts 3:19-23). Moses is not more than one person, so why the plural usage here? It is plural used in a singular setting to denote supremacy (plural intensive), that is, to denote the supremacy of the power given to Moses by Jehovah over the power of Pharaoh and the gods of Pharaoh.
Brown, Driver, Briggs and Gesenius. "Hebrew Lexicon entry for 'elohiym".
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon".

We should also note that elohim in the plural means "gods" -- not persons. Thus the argument that its plural usage means a trinity would tend to mean that there are three gods, not three persons in one God, as is claimed for the trinity doctrine. ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26 is used as the plural intensive, or superlative, of the singular, and refers to one person speaking to another person, saying "Let us..." If ELOHIM is used as a plural in Genesis 1:26, then we would have several Gods saying to another or others: "Let us..." But in reality, ELOHIM refers to one: Jehovah, and then that one is speaking to another or to others.

For more on the usage of the world *elohim*, see our document:
Elohim: Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?

Image and Likeness

Someone has argued: "As in "Let US make MAN in our IMAGE and LIKENESS. Now, do tell us how God made man in 'his image and likeness' if God is a spirit? Does a spirit have an image? A likeness?"

This argument would have God Almighty as a flesh being like us. To be in his image and likeness does not mean that if Jehovah is an invisible spirit being that we also must also be invisible spirit beings. Having been created in the image of God certainly does not mean that the first human pair were invisible, which is an attribute of God Almighty. (Colossians 1:15) Likewise, since Jesus' exaltation we read that he dwells in unapproachable light; whom no human has seen, nor can see. -- 1 Timothy 6:16.

The word "image" is used in different ways in the Bible; Adam was created in God's image; (Genesis 1:26) Does this mean that God has a fleshly body, as man does? Absolutely not!

An image of any thing is a representation or copy of it, though of inferior substance. So the first man was an earthly or clay copy of his heavenly, spiritual Maker -- a copy of God! yes, he was to be a manifestation of God in flesh.

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26 about three persons in one God, only an indication that Jehovah was speaking to someone who was already in his image and likeness. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3.

Man was originally created in the likeness of God, crowned with glory. -- Genesis 1:26; 5:1; Psalm 8:5

Man was created in the mental and moral image and likeness of God, with ability to reason and to exercise his free will to choose right or wrong. Man exists on a higher plane than the animals and "a little lower than the angels [elohim]." (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) It is difficult to judge from present human conditions all that is meant by God's image, because we have no sample (save that recorded of Jesus) of perfect humanity for comparison. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" in which Adam was created. -- Romans 3:23; Psalm 8:5.

Now we note some other scriptures concerning the likeness of God. David hoped to be raised again in the likeness of God. (Psalm 17:15) The new creature in Christ is in the likeness of God, having been reckoned as justified through faith in the blood of Jesus. -- Ephesians 2:24

However, more specifically the context indicates how man was created in the image and likeness of God: "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." In other words, man was not only made morally and intellectually to resemble his Creator, so that he would be able to think and reason on higher planes than would be possible to the lower animals, but he was also endowed with authority to control the lower creatures, to be the EL -- powerful ruler -- of earth as Jehovah is the EL of the universe. This agrees well with the statement of Psalm 8:5-8, in which it is declared that God created man but a little lower than the angels, so far as his intelligence and capacity were concerned, and that thus he was "crowned with glory and honor" and given dominion over the lower creatures. It further agrees with Pauls statement in 1 Corinthians 15:39-41. Nevertheless, Paul says concerning this dominion: "But now we don't see all these things subjected to him, yet," indicating what he said elsewhere concerning man's fall from divine likeness, yet with the hope of recovery from this fall. -- Romans 1:21-2:2; 3:10,23; 5: 15-19; 8:19-21; Hebrews 2:7.

And we should note the reading of the following verse, also verse 31, which show that God not only purposed the work and proposed it to his Son, his agent in the creation of all things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16), and that he not only began the work, but that he also completed it: -- "So God created man [past tense] in his own image; in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Compare Genesis 1:27,31; 5:1; 9:6; Ecclessiastes 7:29; 1 Corinthians 11:7; James 3:9) And this creature which God "had made," completed, and declared to be a copy, an image of himself, a manifestation of himself in flesh, he was also pleased to own as his son (Luke 3:38), and as Paul says -- "if a son, then an heir;" (Galatians 4:7) for God brings no son into existence for whom he has not made ample provision. Therefore as a son he had the rich token of his Father's loving providence in the vast domain of earth which he was to subdue and take possession of as his posterity would increase and require it; and all its products -- animal, vegetable and mineral -- were subject to his control and use: "And God blessed them, and God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living animal that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food." -- Genesis 1:28,29

And not only did God thus give to Adam the whole earth as an inheritance for himself and his posterity, telling them to appropriate it and cultivate it as their increasing necessities should require, but he had already prepared a choice portion of it as a fit home for the perfect pair, and a sample of what the whole domain of earth would become under the process of industrious cultivation with his added blessing. -- "And Jehovah God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.... And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." -- Genesis 2:8,15

Thus the context indicates the image of God in Adam, as well as can be seen in Psalm 8:5-8. It is not an image of physical likeness; but to Adam was given the ability to rule, to have a dominion. He had the ability of perception like God; of understanding; as well to reflect all the general attributes and qualities of God on a lesser scale. Man was given perception, imagination, the power of original suggestion, memory, reason, judgment and will, corresponding to these various intellectual qualities in God. He has also the Godlike moral quality of conscience, which enables him to discern the right and the wrong, to distinguish one from the other and to estimate them properly. As originally created, all of these powers worked together perfectly and harmoniously, all being subject to that supreme mental faculty, the will, which, being free to act independently, though aided by the suggestions of all the other mental and moral faculties, determines the course and constitutes the character of the man.

The glory of God-likeness and dominion was to a great extent lost when Adam disobeyed. (Romans 3:23) The apostle tells us that now we do not see all things subjected to man. (Hebrews 2:6-7) Thus the original purpose for mankind has yet to be seen. When Adam sinned, in effect God disowned him as his son, as he no longer reflected the qualities of God.

Therefore we see from the Bible testimony that man was originally perfect, an image or copy of God in flesh. Of the fall from that original perfection and the results to the entire race of Adam, we also have the clear testimony of the Scriptures, showing just how it came about -- that it was a willful transgression of known righteous law, in the face of a distinct warning of the penalty of such a course. It was a sin on man's part only, and from which God is fully exonerated in that man was left under no necessity of want and with full instruction as to the right course and as to the results of a wrong course of action. The only cause of man's fall, then, which is traceable to the Creator, lies in the fact that he created him in his own image -- with a free will of his own. But this endowment, we see, was the crowning act of God's favor to man, and man's choicest blessing. And so it was the lack of appreciation, and an abuse of God's abounding favor and goodness, and not any lack on God's part, which led to the fall.

As a consequence of that fall from original perfection and favor on the part of the head and representative of the race, another law of our being, designed for our highest good -- the law of heredity -- has brought upon all Adam's posterity its entailment of imperfection and proneness to evil. And thus all the race is in the same wretched plight. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, nor a bitter fountain send forth sweet waters. The present state, therefore, of the entire race is a degenerating and dying one. Had it not been for the redemption through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, the plight of man would have been without remedy.

Related RL Studies

John 1:10 - The World Made Through Jesus

 Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks To His Son

Genesis 1:26 – Let Us and Elohim

"Let us" and "One of Us"

Genesis 1:26,27 and Trinitarian Assumptions



See also:
http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r3921.htm

We give some links below to other sites that contain some information on this scripture. We do not necesarily agree with all that is stated, nor do the authors of the pages linked to necessarily agree with our views.

http://members.aol.com/Wrested2/B08Trinity/Genesis1v26.html
Genesis 1:26 (Wrested Scriptures)
Unitarian viewpoint.

Genesis 1:26-27 - Bowman, the Bible, and Trinitarianism
Discusses mostly difference of methodology and concepts regarding word usage: God, Theos.

Isaiah 61:1 - Jehovah Sent His Messiah

Isaiah 61:1 - The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is on Me, because Jehovah has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the meek. He has sent Me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to captives, and complete opening to the bound ones. -- Green's Literal.

The above scripture is sometimes offered as proof of the trinity, evidently simply because Jehovah is mentioned, and the spirit of Jehovah is mentioned, and the one sent by Jehovah is mentioned. The trinitarian has to imagine and assume that "Jehovah" refers to one person of their idea of the "one Jehovah" (Deuteronomy 6:8) of three persons, while the spirit of Jehovah they imagine and assune to be referring another person of the one Jehovah of three persons, and the one sent by Jehovah would have to be imagined to be another person of the one Jehovah of three persons.  All of this has to imagined, thought "beyond the things which are written" (1 Corinthians 4:8), and then added to, and read into what is written, although it seems that most trinitarians rarely try to reason their own belief out when they look at scriptures such as this.

Actually, the one Jehovah is here completely distinguished from the one sent by Jehovah. Nor is the spirit of Jehovah depicted as a person of Jehovah to whom that spirit belongs.

As the scripture reads, it was Jehovah -- one person -- who anointed the one sent, thus making the one sent the Messiah (anointed one) of Jehovah. This agrees with the rest of the Bible. In the Bible, we find that Jehovah is always presented as one person, and never is Jehovah presented as more than one person.

John 1:1 and Trinity Assumptions

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [TON THEON], and the Word was God [THEOS]. The same was in the beginning with God [TON THEON]. -- John 1:1,2, World English - transliterations from the Westcott & Hort Interlinear.
In order to get trinity out of John 1:1, the trinitarian has to assume and read into the verse several things: (1) that two persons of the trinity-god are being spoken of here, and (2) that God whom the Logos was with is their alleged "first person" of the trinity, and (3) that THEOS applied to the Logos is their alleged "second person" of the trinity. Then, (4) they have add to these assumptions that these two alleged persons of their trinity are both the same one true God. Rather than assuming and adding such to the scriptures, it is best to simply let the scriptures have their own say, applying spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing. -- 1 Corinthians 2:10,13.
The word THEOS is being applied to the LOGOS in John 1:1, but this does not mean that John was saying that Jesus was the only true God whom the LOGOS was with, as it should be apparent since twice John states that the LOGOS was with God. Jesus declares that One whom he was with before the world was made was the only true God (John 17:1,3,5), thus the scriptures make it plain that John is not saying that the Logos was the only true God whom the Logos was with. Therefore, the term THEOS as applied to the Logos should be applied with the general meaning of the Hebraic words for deity/divinity (form of EL, ELOHIM), that is, of strength, power, might.
While most translations render "kai theos een ho logos" as "the Word was God," Moffat renders this phrase as "the Word was divine." Julius Mantey declares that the phrase means "the Word was deity." We should have no objection to rendering theos as divine or deity, if one applies the terms divine and deity with the general meaning of strength, might, power, rather than as Supreme Being -- the Might of the Universe. James Parkinson, in his footnote of the American Revised Version Improved and Corrected, suggests "mighty was the Word." This would be the better rendering, or a rendering such as "the Word was mighty," both of which would distinguish the Word from the only true God whom the Logos was with. This would be in agreement with the rest of the scriptures, where the words for deity / divinity are applied to persons (and even things) who are not Yahweh in a general sense of might, power or strength.
The best point to begin with to show this usage is with John 10:34,35, where Jesus quotes/references Psalms 82:1,6, where both forms of the Hebrew word EL and ELOHIM are applied the sons of the Most High, the sons to whom the Logos came (as Jesus explained). In John 10:34,35, the word ELOHIM is rendered as THEOI, the plural of THEOS. According the King James Version, God [ELOHIM] standeth in the congregation of the mighty [EL]. (Psalm 82:1) In reference to the sons of the Most High, the KJV renders the term EL as "the mighty." I believe that the KJV is correct in this rendering. Applying this scriptural principle to THEOS in John 1:1, we would likewise have "the Logos was mighty."
Of course, this is not the only place that the KJV renders forms of the words EL (Strong's Hebrew #410)  and ELOHIM (Strong's Hebrew #430) with terms showing mightiness or strength. Here are a few scriptures: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The point is the King James translators, in all these verses, did not render the word for deity/divinity [EL] as "God" or as "god", but with terms of might, strength, great, power and might.
All of the spirit beings, by "nature" of the superior might given to them by the Almighty are scripturally designated as el or elohim, and thus can be spoken of as divine -- mighty -- in being. -- Psalm 8:5 (compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels as elohim); 45:6,7; Isaiah 9:6,7; John 1:1,2; Acts 2:33; 5:31; Ephesians 1:20,22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2-4,8; 1 Peter 1:21; 3:22.
Likewise, the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15), who existed before all the creation that was created by means of him (Colossians 1:17), can certainly also have the term theos applied to him without meaning that he is the only true God who sent him. Indeed, before he became a man, he "was" a mighty spirit being, having a heavenly glory that he did not possess while he was a human. -- John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40. See also:
Related Books
Please note that I do not necessarily agree with all that is stated in these books. -- Ronald


When Jesus Became God -- Gives a lot of historical background.
The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture - The Effect of Early Christological Controversies
on the Text of the New Testament
Concepts of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - A Classification and Description of the Trinitarian and Non-Trinitarian Theologies Existent Within Christendom
Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian
The Trinity's Weak Links Revealed A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Original post date: December 25, 2008

Colossians 2:9 - The Plenitude of Mightiness

For in Him all the fullness [Greek, pleroma, plenitude] of Deity [Greek, Theotes; Strong's #2320] dwells in bodily form and in him you are made full, who is the head of all principality and power. -- Colossians 2:9,10, New American Standard Bible translation
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2320
The Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich Lexicon [BAGD], on page 359, defines the Greek word theotes as: "deity, divinity, used as abstract noun for theos...the fullness of a deity Col.2:9". [abstract noun, a quality or attribute].
This form of THEOS, that is, *THEOTES*, only appears this one time in the Scriptures, thus we have a lack of scriptural comparison for its usage. We have, however, the Hebrew background of words that translated into Greek as THEOS, that is, forms of EL and ELOHIM. I have given before the Hebriac usage of these words in the Hebrew scriptures, showing that when they are used of others than Yahweh (or idols of men), they take on a more general meaning of might, power, strength, etc. Without assuming and adding to Colossians 2:9 the idea that Jesus is being spoken of here as Yahweh, it certainly can be seen that Paul would be using theotes to describe what God has given to Jesus as to power and might, not any idea that Jesus is Yahweh.
See:
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
The Greek form of *Soma* (body) that appears in Colossians 2:9, is *Somatikos* (adverb form of "Soma", bodily), which form likewise does not appear any where else in the Scriptures. Paul speaks of Jesus' spiritual, heavenly, body in the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:44), when he says that Jesus, the last Adam, "became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45) Thus, he is speaking in Colossians 2:9 about that spiritual body, as can be seen from the context, and not the body of flesh and blood that Jesus had already given in sacrifice. -- Hebrews 10:10.
See:
Jesus Died a Human Being - Raised a Spirit Being
The plenitude of godship -- ruling might -- does dwell permanently in the mighty spiritual body of Jesus. It is not just an authority that is given to him, but his very being, after he became the life-giving spirit, now possesses all the power needed to carry out the works of his Father, thus "it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him," (Colossians 1:19, NAS) and so that now he "is the head of all principality and power." (Colossians 2:10; see also Ephesians 1:3,17-23) This might -- godhead, godship -- is given to Jesus from his God. -- Psalm 45:7; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:2,6,9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:10; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14.
See also:
The Fullness of Deity

Tuesday, May 16, 2017

Isaiah 43:10 - Only Jehovah Saves

It is being claimed that since only Yahweh saves, then, since to it is necessary to know Jesus for salvation (John 17:3), that Jesus is by definition Yahweh.
The scripture says that there is no salvation aside from Jehovah. (Isaiah 43:11; Hosea 13:14) This does not mean that Jehovah could not send others as saviors who would act in his behalf. The scriptures state that Jehovah sent more than one savior to Israel. (Nehemiah 9:27) The Hebrew word for "savior" is often transliterated as "Yasha'". This word is used of many different people in the Old Testament. It is used of Moses in Exodus 2:17; does mean that Moses is Jehovah?
Here are some instances in which this word is used:
{Judges 2:16} Jehovah raised up judges, who saved [Yasha'] them out of the hand of those who despoiled them.
Were these judges all "Jehovah"?
The scripture says that Jehovah was with those judges that he raised up for Israel:
{Judges 3:9} When the children of Israel cried to Jehovah, Jehovah raised up a savior to the children of Israel, who saved them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.
What is said here concerning Othniel as being savior is similar to what the Bible says concerning Jesus. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 10:40; Mark 9:37; Luke 4:18; 9:48; 10:16; John 4:34; 5:23,24,30,36,37,38; 6:29,38,39,44,57; 17:1,3,16,18,28,29,33; 8:16,18,26,29; Acts 3:13-26; 1 John 4:10,14) According to the reasoning given, only Jehovah can be savior, and if one is consistent, Othniel must also be Jehovah.
Another savior that Jehovah sent:
{Judges 3:15} But when the children of Israel cried to Jehovah, Jehovah raised them up a savior [Yasha'], Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a man left-handed. The children of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab.
No one thinks that because Jehovah sent Ehud as a savior, that Ehud must be Jehovah, because only Jehovah saves. Likewise, there is no reason to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scriptures that Jesus must be Jehovah because Jehovah sent Jesus to save us, which Jesus did by the offering of his humanity in sacrifice to the only true God
{Judges 3:31} After him was Shamgar the son of Anath, who struck of the Philistines six hundred men with an oxgoad: and he also saved [Yasha'] Israel.
Shamgar saved Israel. Should we assume that Shamgar must be Jehovah, because only Jehovah saves? Obviously, it was indeed Jehovah who was the source of the salvation; Shamgar was but the instrument that Jehovah used. Likewise, Jehovah is the source of the salvation that comes through His Son; this does not mean that we need to add to the scriptures that Jesus is Jehovah, since only Jehovah saves.
{Judges 6:14} Jehovah looked at him, and said, "Go in this your might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent you?"
Here Jehovah was speaking to Gideon, and Jehovah told Gideon to "save Israel from the hand of Midian". And he adds "Have not I sent you?" Isn't this similar to Jesus, for the Lord Jehovah sent Jesus to save the world? If Jehovah's sending Jesus as savior means that Jesus is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves, we should also consider Gideon to be Jehovah also.
{Judges 6:36} Gideon said to God, "If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have spoken,
{Judges 6:37} behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there be dew on the fleece only, and it be dry on all the ground, then I will know that you will save Israel by my hand, as you have spoken."
Here Gideon asks for a sign that he save Israel, but he recognized this as not being of himself, but that Jehovah was to do this by -- through -- the hand of Gideon. Likewise, we read that God, through, by means of, Jesus, reconciled us to Himself [not to Jesus]. -- Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:18,19.
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{Judges 10:1} After Abimelech there arose to save [Yasha'] Israel Tola the son of Puah, the son of Dodo, a man of Issachar; and he lived in Shamir in the hill country of Ephraim.
Again, no one considers Tola to be Jehovah; likewise, there is no reaon to imagine and assume that Jesus is Jehovah.
{Judges 13:5} for, behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb: and he shall begin to save [Yasha'] Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
Here, an angel of Jehovah tells Manoah of Samson, and stated that Samson was to begin save Israel. Again, Samson was a not savior apart from, besides, Jehovah, for it Jehovah who is behind Samson; likewise, in sending His Son to save the world, Jesus is not savior apart from, besides, Jehovah, for it is Jehovah who sent Jesus to save the world. -- Isaiah 61:1,2; John 17:1,3; 1 John 4:14.
{1 Samuel 9:16} "Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man out of the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over my people Israel; and he shall save [Yasha'] my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked on my people, because their cry has come to me."
Here Jehovah is speaking of Saul, who later proved unfaithful. Nevertheless, Jehovah said that Saul was to save Israel. Of course, Saul, as being savior of Israel was not such a savior besides Jehovah, for it was Jehovah who sent Saul as savior.
{1 Samuel 23:2} Therefore David asked Jehovah, saying, "Should I go and strike these Philistines?" Jehovah said to David, "Go strike the Philistines, and save Keilah."
{1 Samuel 23:4} Then David inquired of Yahweh yet again. Yahweh answered him, and said, "Arise, go down to Keilah; for I will deliver [Yahsha'] the Philistines into your hand."
{1 Samuel 23:5} David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their livestock, and killed them with a great slaughter. So David saved [Yasha'] the inhabitants of Keilah.
Here Jehovah tells David to "save Keilah", a city in the land of Israel, which David did. David was not to be a savior besides Jehovah, nor was Jesus the savior of the world besides Jehovah. It was Jehovah who performed this deliverance through David. Likewise, it is Jehovah who saves the world through His son.
{2 Kings 13:5} Jehovah gave Israel a savior [Yasha'], so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians; and the children of Israel lived in their tents as before.
This is evidently referring to Joash. It was Jehovah who gave this savior to Israel -- this does not mean that we need imagine and assume that this savior is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves; likewise, it is Jehovah who gave his son as savior of the world, and likewise, we have no reason to imagine and assume that Jesus is Jehovah because only Jehovah saves. -- John 3:16,17; 1 John 5:11.
{Judges 2:18} When Jehovah raised them up judges, then Jehovah was with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it grieved Jehovah because of their groaning by reason of those who oppressed them and troubled them.
The scripture aboves tells us that Jehovah was "with" those judges whom he "raised up" to save Israel. Likewise, the scripture says that Jehovah, the only true God who had raised up Jesus as the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26), was "with" Jesus.
{John 8:29} He [the only true God of Isaiah 61:1 and John 17:3] who sent me is with me.
{John 16:32} Behold, the time is coming, yes, and has now come, that you will be scattered, everyone to his own place, and you will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the Father [the only true God of Isaiah 61:1 and John 17:3] is with me.
{Acts 10:38} even Jesus of Nazareth, how God [the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1] anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God [the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1] was with him.

It is being claimed that if Jesus is not Yahweh, then a person could be saved by knowing only the Father, but to know the Father only is incomplete.

The only true God, in order to save us, did indeed need a sinelss human being to be the means of that salvation, for only by such means could the only true God remain just, while yet justifying the sinner. To settle the matter of justice, justice required a sinless human being to offset the condemnation through Adam. (Romans 3:26; 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) There is nothing at all in this that would require that Jesus had to be Jehovah.

Other scriptures related to this:

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. -- Jude 1:25, World English.

Jehovah is Savior, "through Jesus Christ".

To us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we to him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6, World English.

The word "things" is added by translators. All is from the only true God (John 17:1,3), through the one whom the only true God has made Lord and Christ. -- Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1,2; Acts 2:36.

See
The Basis of Atonement
http://reslight.net/?p=149

See also my studies related to savior and salvation:
No Savior Besides Yahweh
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2011/07/yah-savior.html
Besides Yahweh There is No Savior
http://jesus-rlbible.com/?p=608
The True Gospel
http://reslight.net/?p=17
The Price of Redemption - God or Man?
http://reslight.net/?p=242
1 Peter 3:18, Romans 8:8,9 and Jesus’ Sacrifice for Sin
http://reslight.net/?p=262
Jesus Saves the Whole World Condemned in Adam
http://reslight.net/?p=230
God willing, I will be eventually moving this thread to:
http://defendbiblefaith.com/?p=1081