Showing posts with label Jesus as "Creator". Show all posts
Showing posts with label Jesus as "Creator". Show all posts
Monday, May 15, 2017
Wednesday, April 12, 2017
Did Jesus Exist Before He Was Made Flesh? (Working on)
We have high regard for our unitarian friends who do not believe in the prehuman existence of Jesus, but we cannot agree with them in this conlusion. Most who reject Jesus' prehuman existence do not know the basis of Jesus' ransom sacrifice for sin and how that sacrifice saves Adam and all who are dying in Adam from the condemnation. Usually, those who do not believe Jesus was in existence before the days of flesh know nothing of the restoration (restitution) promises for all mankind that God has guaranteed because of Jesus' sacrifice. -- John 12:47,48; Acts 3:21; 17:31; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Acts 17:31; 1 Timothy 2:5,6.
See
The Ransom Resource Page
We generally do not use the expression "pre-exist", but rather we speak of the "prehuman existence" of Jesus. Some could interpret the tem "pre-exist" to mean a time before one exists. Of course, no one exists in any time before his existence.
We do believe that many scriptures, such as Genesis 1:26,27 (seen with John 1:1-3,10,14; 17:1,35); Proverbs 30:4; Micah 5:2; John 1:1-3,10,14; 3:13,14; 6:62; 17:5; Colossians 1:15,16 and others show that Jesus did exist before his God prepared a body of flesh for him and made him a little lower the angels. -- Hebrews 2:9; 10:5.
See our resource page: Jesus' Prehuman Existence
One unitarian has presented Hebrews 1:2 as being the most powerful of the scriptures offered to prove that Jesus had a prehuman existence, and based on the way this verse is often viewed by trinitarians, he proceeds to knock down that the idea that Hebrews 1:2 refers to Jesus' prehuman existence. We, however, do not usually point to Hebrews 1:2 as related to Jesus' prehuman existence. Indeed, until this thought was presented by some unitarians, we had never thought of Hebrews 1:2 as being used to try to prove Jesus' pre-human existence; to us it would not be the most powerful of the scriptures related to his pre-human existence. We would think even Hebrews 1:10 to be more convincing that Jesus was with his God when the world of mankind was made.
See our study: Does Jehovah Speak to Jehovah?
We do not believe that Hebrews 1:2, however, speaks dirctly of the world being made through Jesus, but it does speak of the "ages" (αἰῶνας -aiōna, accusative masculine plural noun -- Strong's 165) as being made through Jesus. Although the King James Version and many translations do often render the Greek word aiōna as "world", we believe that it is misleading to do so. Despite what many claim, in the Bible forms the Greek word often transliterated as "aión" refers to a time period; the plural form is used in Hebrews 1:2 which refers to ages, periods of time. God has made the ages -- the periods of time as related to man -- through Jesus.Thus Young's Literal translation renders Hebrews 1:2 as: "in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages." Evidently, Hebrews 11:3 speaks of the same "ages" as referred to Hebrews 1:2. Many assume that it cannot be referring to periods of time in Hebrews 11:3, although, as yet, we have not found any good scriptural reason for making such an assumption. Of course, for God to have made use of Jesus in making the ages starting from the beginning of Genesis onward into all all ages to come through Jesus, Jesus certainly needed to be in existence before those ages were made. John 1:1 does place the Word whose glory was seen by the discples in the first century (John 1:18) as having been in existence before the beginning of the world of mankind that was made through the Word. (John 1:3,10) Thus, we conclude that in Genesis 1:27, Elohim speaks to his Son. See our study: Who is God Speaking To?
It is possible that these "ages" spoken of refer only to the "ages to come" (Ephesians 2:7) which would never be had it not been that the man Jesus gave himself as a ransom sacrifice for all. Hebrews 1:3 refers to Jesus' sacrifice to remove sin. Regardless, these "ages to come" are evidently included in the "ages" referred to in Hebrews 11:2 and also in Hebrews 11:3. God, however, "calls things that are not, as though they were" (Romans 4:17), and thus scriptures often refer to future events as though they already were . Consequently, through Jesus, those "ages to come" are reckoned as having been made. The new creature is reckoned, counted, as though the present age has already passed away, and thereby he tastes of the "age to come." (2 Corinthians 5:17; Hebrews 6:5; Revelation 21:1-5) If the age refer to the future ages, then there is nothing in Hebrews 1:2 that would indicate Jesus' prehuman existence. "Ages" could refer, however, all of the ages of world of mankind, starting with the "beginning" spoken of Genesis 1:1; John 1:1. If this is true, then this verse does have reference to Jesus' prehuman existence, since he would need to be there at that time in order for the first of the ages to have been made through him.
Someone objects that God spoke through angels in the Old Testament. Hebrews 1:1,2 does not mention that Jehovah spoke to the prophets through the angels, but we know that in the Old Testament we do find that Jehovah did speak through his angels who relayed his message to the prophets who delivered the message to the people. (Exodus 3:2-4 [see Acts 7:30,35; Galatians 3:19]; Genesis 16:7-11,13; 22:1,11,12,15-18) In harmony with Hebrews 1:1, God at times made use of his angels when speaking to and through his prophets of old. This does not negate what is stated in Hebrews 1:1.
However, was Jesus used by God to speak through the prophets of old? Hebrews 1:1,2 would seem to indicate that he did not. Nevertheless, we do not know for a fact that Jehovah did not use his Son when Jehovah spoke through the prophets. It could have been that Jehovah did use a similar method as depicted in Revelation 1:1: God to Jesus, Jesus to the angel, the angel to John, and John to the servants of God. Substitute John with the prophets. -- Genesis 16:7-11; 22:11; 31:11; Exodus 3:2-5; 23:20-23; Judges 2:1-4; 6:11,12; 13:3.
Nevertheless, the fact that Jehovah spoke through his prophets does not mean that Jesus was not in existence with his Father before the world of mankind was made. -- John 1:10; 17:1,3,5.
We have a study on Hebrews 1:1-3:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/heb1-1.html
Many make the claim that the Greek word often rendered as "by" or "through" in John 1:3,10, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2, means 'on account of', instead being used to denote instrumentality. We believe that this incorrect. Nevertheless, if one simply looks up the meaning of the Greek word "dia" in a Greek dictionary, and see "on account of" listed as one of definitions of the Greek word "dia", it is an easy mistake to make, if one does include the general grammatical rules of the Greek grammar. Thayer shows that when dia is followed by a genetive, the meaning of dia is "through". The Greek of John 1:3 is πάντα (Strong's #3956, panta - nominative neuter plural = all) δι’ (Strong's #1223, di’ = through) αὐτοῦ (Strong's #846, auto - genitive masculine third person singular - him). A literal word-for-word translation of John 1:3: All through him came into being and without him came into being not one. The same is true of the uage of "dia" in the Greek of John 1:10, the Greek of Colossians 1:16 as well as the Greek of Hebrews 1:2.
See our Links to Studies Related to John 1:3
However, contrary to what many believe this does not designate Jesus as the source of creation, but rather as the instrument that the Creator used in whatever creation is being referred to in the context.
See:
www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/dia.html
Likewise, the Greek preposition often transliterated as "en" (Strong's #1722), as used in Colossians 1:16,17, also denotes instrumentality, as we have shown in the studies listed earlier.
One Unitarian presents Hebrews 1:8-10 as meaning:
"He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' - and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; ...'" (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).
Moffatt's Translation without the alterations:
Hebrews 1:8 He says of the Son, 'God is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity:
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved justice and hated lawlessnes. Therefore God, thy God, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' --
Hebrews 1:10 and, 'Thou didst found the earth at the beginning, O Lord, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
As already pointed out, the statements are being made "of" Jehovah's son, not of Jehovah. Jehovah is addressing his Son. The quotes as given by Moffatt do not suggest otherwise, since by connecting them with "and" he is showing that Jehovah is still the speaker who is speaking to His Son. We have no reason to think that Paul does not continue to speak of the Son of Jehovah in Hebrews 1:10.
And [Jehovah continues to speak of His Son], “You, Lord [Jesus], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail.” -- Hebrews 1:10-12, World English.
This is an indirect quote from Psalm 102:25-27. If "Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 means Jehovah, this would mean that Jehovah is speaking of His Son as Himself. Trinitarians love that idea, by which they use their imagination so as to imagine, assume, add to and read into, what is stated that there are two different and distinct persons, both of whom are the same Jehovah.
I wrote on this before, and the study may be found at:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/09/heb-1-10-12.html
I will quote from that study:
If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah in verse 24: “I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days.” As David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Jehovah, the Father, spoke. From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want.” — Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.
It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were originally without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places. Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:
For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Jehovah saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Jehovah.
[Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, “My God, don’t take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations.”
[Hear Jehovah's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] “Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you.”
The present world (kosmos) - the present heavens and earth -- into which sin has come, and which has been made corrupt through that sin, is heavens and earth that is to pass away. The world that was made through Jesus is the world into which Jesus came, but which world did not recognize him because of their darkness due to sin. (John 1:10,11; 3:19) It is the same "world" that sin came into through the first man Adam. (Romans 5:12) It is this world, this heavens and earth, the generation condemned through Adam (Romans 5:12-19), that is/are to pass away. (Isaiah 24:4; Matthew 24:34,35; 1 John 2:17; 2 Corinthian 4:4-6) Peter wrote of a world, a heavens and an earth, that passed away in the flood of Noah's time, but it was not planet earth, nor the physical sun, moon, stars, etc., that passed away. (2 Peter 3:5) However, the world that was made through Jesus is to pass away, but Jesus will never be removed, for his dominion is ann "everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." -- Daniel 7:14, World English.
Of course, Jesus was not revealed until the New Testament, thus we should not expect to find him directly revealed as being in existence in the days of the Old Testament.
However, contrary to what many believe this does not designate Jesus as the source of creation, but rather as the instrument that the Creator used in whatever creation is being referred to in the context.
See:
www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/dia.html
Likewise, the Greek preposition often transliterated as "en" (Strong's #1722), as used in Colossians 1:16,17, also denotes instrumentality, as we have shown in the studies listed earlier.
One Unitarian presents Hebrews 1:8-10 as meaning:
"He [Yahweh, verse 5] says of the Son, 'G-d [the Father, Yahweh] is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal septre is the septre of equity: thou [the Son] hast loved justice and hated lawlessness, therefore G-d, the G-d, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' - and, 'Thou [Yahweh] didst found the earth at the beginning, O L-rd [Yahweh], and the heavens are the work of thy hands; ...'" (Heb. 1:8-10, Moffatt).
Moffatt's Translation without the alterations:
Hebrews 1:8 He says of the Son, 'God is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity:
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved justice and hated lawlessnes. Therefore God, thy God, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy comrades' --
Hebrews 1:10 and, 'Thou didst found the earth at the beginning, O Lord, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
As already pointed out, the statements are being made "of" Jehovah's son, not of Jehovah. Jehovah is addressing his Son. The quotes as given by Moffatt do not suggest otherwise, since by connecting them with "and" he is showing that Jehovah is still the speaker who is speaking to His Son. We have no reason to think that Paul does not continue to speak of the Son of Jehovah in Hebrews 1:10.
And [Jehovah continues to speak of His Son], “You, Lord [Jesus], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail.” -- Hebrews 1:10-12, World English.
This is an indirect quote from Psalm 102:25-27. If "Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 means Jehovah, this would mean that Jehovah is speaking of His Son as Himself. Trinitarians love that idea, by which they use their imagination so as to imagine, assume, add to and read into, what is stated that there are two different and distinct persons, both of whom are the same Jehovah.
I wrote on this before, and the study may be found at:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/09/heb-1-10-12.html
I will quote from that study:
If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah in verse 24: “I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days.” As David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Jehovah, the Father, spoke. From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want.” — Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.
It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were originally without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places. Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:
For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Jehovah saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Jehovah.
[Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, “My God, don’t take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations.”
[Hear Jehovah's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] “Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you.”
The present world (kosmos) - the present heavens and earth -- into which sin has come, and which has been made corrupt through that sin, is heavens and earth that is to pass away. The world that was made through Jesus is the world into which Jesus came, but which world did not recognize him because of their darkness due to sin. (John 1:10,11; 3:19) It is the same "world" that sin came into through the first man Adam. (Romans 5:12) It is this world, this heavens and earth, the generation condemned through Adam (Romans 5:12-19), that is/are to pass away. (Isaiah 24:4; Matthew 24:34,35; 1 John 2:17; 2 Corinthian 4:4-6) Peter wrote of a world, a heavens and an earth, that passed away in the flood of Noah's time, but it was not planet earth, nor the physical sun, moon, stars, etc., that passed away. (2 Peter 3:5) However, the world that was made through Jesus is to pass away, but Jesus will never be removed, for his dominion is ann "everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." -- Daniel 7:14, World English.
Of course, Jesus was not revealed until the New Testament, thus we should not expect to find him directly revealed as being in existence in the days of the Old Testament.
Ronald R. Day, Senior, Restoration Light Bible Study Services: ResLight, Rlbible
Tuesday, December 13, 2016
Thursday, November 24, 2016
Saturday, November 27, 2010
Is Jesus the Creator?
Actually, there is nothing in any of the above verses that identify Jesus as the Creator -- the source of creation. The word “creator” is never used of Jesus in the Bible. That thought is being imagined, assumed, added to, and read into the scriptures. Jesus himself applied the words “creator” and “creation” to his God and Father, but never to himself. — Mark 10:6; 13:19.
John 1:3
John 1:1-10 shows that Father, the only true God of John 17:1,3, created the world of mankind through His Logos.
In John 1:3,10, we have the Logos as being the one through whom ELOHIM of Genesis 1:1 made the world [kosmos] of mankind, the world into which the Logos came, the same world [kosmos] that became corrupted through the sin of one man. (Romans 5:12-19; 8:20-22) The world being spoken in John 1:3,10 does not include the angels, for Job 38:4-6 lets us know that the angels were already in existence at the "beginning" of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1.
Many point out that in John 1:3, John says that not one thing was made without the Word, and they like to stress that John used both a form of the Greek word often transliterated as "pas" and it is alleged that he emphasized that this includes absolutely all creation by using a form of the word often transliterated as oude (negative - not, none, no) to say that without him not (oude) one (hen, neuter) thing was created. It is claimed that this means that it is "universal in scope", meaning that it absolutely refers to everything that was created, and thus it is claimed that this would exclude Jesus from having been created. However, the Greek words used rarely mean absolutely "all" in such a sense. A study of forms of the word often transliterated "pas" (all, every, etc.) shows that it is rarely, if ever, used as that which is often assumed in John 1:3; all forms of "pas" always look to context as well as to common evidence (1 Corinthians 15:27) for what is included or excluded in the "all" being spoken of.
For instance, we have a similar usage in Hebrews 2:6-8, based on Psalm 8:4-6, discussing God's original purpose that "all" be made subject to man. Hebrews 2:8 likewise uses a similar positive form of pas and a similar negative form of oude; if one is consistent with the assumed reasoning as often applied to John 1:3, one would also have to say that that which was subjected to man is "universal in scope." And yet Psalm 8:7,8 limits whatever universal scope might be applied to the usage of Hebrews 2:8; the original dominion given to man pertains universally only to the things on the earth. -- Genesis 1:26,28.
To elaborate, in Hebrews 2:8, in speaking of what has been subjected to man as spoken of in Psalm 8:6, we read: "For in that he subjected all things to him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now [due to the sin of Adam, man has been subjected to futility -- Romans 5:12-19; 8:20] we don’t see all things subjected to him, yet." Note that the scripture says that God left nothing that is not subject to him (man). Does this mean that God subjected absolutely everything in the entire universe to man? Absolutely not! Psalm 8:7,8 describes the "all things" that was subjected to man, which corresponds with Genesis 1:26,28. All that was subjected to man pertains to all the earth, not absolutely all in the universe.
Likewise, there is an indication of the same limitation of the scope of panta in John 1:3. John 1:10 speaks of the world (kosmos) that the Logos came into as the world that was made through the Logos. That world did not recognize Jesus (the Logos who lived among the disciples, and whose human glory was seen by them. -- John 1:.14. The world in John 1:10 It is this same "world" that Jesus spoke of as recorded in John 17:5. Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19 refer to the beginning of the world (kosmos); this world is described in John 1:10 as the world into which the Word came, but which world did not recognize the Word in their midst. Likewise, it is the same "world" that Paul wrote about in Romans 5:12 and Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 1:4. This "world" does not include the spirit sons of God, the angels who are always able to see God's face, even though we have every reason to believe that these invisible spirit sons of God were at some time created. The scriptures indicate that these invisible spirit sons of God were created before the beginning, the creation, of the world of mankind, since scripture shows that the spirit sons of God were already in existence at the beginning of the world of mankind. (Job 38:4-8; Colossians 1:15,16) This brings us to the conclusion that John 1:3,10 is speaking of the world of mankind, not the entire material universe, nor of the angels. This is the "world" that the Word came into, and that did not recognize him. (John 1:10) Thus, it can be seen that the NT writers in connection with "the beginning" of creation understood that this beginning was in reference to things upon the planet earth, not to the entire universe itself.
The Greek word "hen" -- one -- of John 1:3 refers back to "the beginning" spoken of in John 1:1, which is the beginning, not of the entire universe, but of the world (kosmos spoken of in John 1:10), the six days of creation of the land (earth) and the sky (heavens) and the things in them as seen from the surface of the planet. -- Genesis 1:1,3-31; Exodus 20:11; 31:17.
To illustrate further, another form of the Greek word "pas" is used in Romans 8:22: "For we know that all [pasa] creation groans and travails in pain together until now." The "all creation" that is being referred to in Romans 8:22 is not the angels, the stars, the sun, the moon, etc., but rather the world of mankind that has been subjected to vanity (Romans 8:20; Ecclesiastes 1:2,13-15) due to Adam’s sin. (Romans 5:12-19) Thus, absolutely "all creation" in the universe is not included in "all creation", neither in Romans 8:20, nor in what is said in John 1:3. Indeed, if one does a study of the usage of all forms of the word "pas" in the New Testament, one will see that this word rarely means absolutely everything in the universe, but that it is always understood in the context as well as common evidence. John 1:10 indicates that in John 1:3, the "all" that is being referred to is the world of mankind, as it is in Romans 8:22. The only true God (John 17:1,3) is the Creator (Mark 10:6; 13:19); the prehuman Jesus is the instrument — the agent — that the Creator used to bring into being the creation that is being spoken of.
Colossians 1:15-18
In Colossians 1:15-18 the use of the Greek transliterated as "en" as related to the Son and "God" begins in Colossians 1:12 where it shows that the God and Father of Jesus is the original source of the action and Colossians 1:13,14 shows that the action is done by means (Greek, en) the Son. As throughout the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is spoken of in Colossians 1:3 as only one person, and that is the God and Father of Jesus. It is the one who is identified as a unipersonal "God" who is "Father" in Colossians 1:12, who is distinguished from his son in Colossians 1:13, and who "by means of" the son in verse 14 that God redeems through the blood of Jesus. In Colossians 1:15, "God" is again distinguished from the son, and in verse 15 we again find the word "en" being used in an instrumental sense, referring back to the Creator in Colossians 1:15, of whom Jesus is designated the firstborn of his creation. God, then, by means of Jesus, made the all in heavens and earth, both visible and invisible thrones, dominions, principalities, etc., (that is the living dominions both in heaven and earth, which excludes the material universe itself. The Bible indicates that God was alone when he created the material universe. Isaiah 44:24 does not refer to the creation of the heavens and earth, the beginning, of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, but rather of the actual creation of the material universe itself, before the six days of creation spoken of in Genesis 1:3-2:1; Exodus 20:11; 31:17, and the singular "day" of creation spoken of in Genesis 2:4. The planet earth itself already "was" before the beginning of the six days of creation. -- Genesis 1:2.
Isaiah 44:24
Isaiah 44:24 - Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things (Strong's Hebrew #3605 - KOL); that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);
The word "things" above is added by the translators. Jehovah formed Israel and made all. The Hebrew word often transliterated as KOL, meaning "all", rarely, if ever, in the Bible means absolutely everything in the universe. Absolutely everything would include God himself.
Jehovah stretched the heavens and spread abroad the earth. The latter part especially appears to be referring to the creation of the material universe itself. While "alone" here could be in comparison to the idol gods of the nations who did not form Israel or bring forth the universe, if Jehovah was totally alone when he created the material universe, it would mean that he who is the Logos was not yet created. Jehovah was definitely not totally alone at the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, since Job 38:4-7 speaks of the spirit sons of God as being present at that time. Thus, Isaiah 44:24 would have to be speaking of an event before the "beginning" of the world of mankind spoken of in John 1:1-3,10; 17:5, and before God brought forth his firstborn son. -- Colossians 1:15.
If Isaiah 44:24 is speaking of the creation of the material universe, as I presented, the creation spoken of in Isaiah 44:24 takes place before the creation of the firstborn son of Colossians 1:15, and before the "all" spoken of in Colossians 1:16. The creation spoken of in Isaiah 44:24 was before the "beginning" of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1-3,10, since there many sons of God present at that beginning. -- Job 38:4-7l.
Hebrews 1:10,11
Hebrews 1:10,11 indicates that in perishing, the present world, the present heavens and earth will be "changed". Jesus spoke of the present heavens and earth as passing away. (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; see also 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 21:1) This is not speaking of the heavens where the angels always are able to see the face of God (Matthew 18:10), nor is it speaking of the physical sun, moon, planets, and stars above. Isaiah 65:17 shows that God is creating a new heavens and new earth, a new creation, and that this new heavens and new earth will remain. (Isaiah 66:22) Revelation 21:1-5 reveals that God is to make all things new -- a regeneration of that which was lost through Adam.
See also:
A careful examination of the scriptures, therefore, does not give us any reason to think that Jesus is the Creator, but rather that the Creator, his God and Father, created all that is being spoken of through, or by means of, of his son.
See also our resource page for links to studies related to Jesus and Creation
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