Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Jesus is not the Most High

This post is in response to a message we received in our youtube account from a trinitarian. We will consider the points that were raised here, as the youtube platform is not designed for such long posts. We will not be presenting a lot of detail in this post, but will be mostly giving a few words and providing links to where we have discuss the points in greater detail.

Our trinitarian neighbor first informs us that the "Jehovah God does not bow down to or worship and honor anyone."

Yes, Jehovah God, being the only Most High, does not bow down to or worship anyone, for there is none higher than Him (Psalm 103:19; John 10:29; 14:28; Hebrews 6:13); but the son of the only Most High (Luke 1:32) does indeed pray to and worship the One whom he called the "only true God." -- John 17:1,3.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that He Himself (Jehovah/Yahweh) is the only true God, the unipersonal God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 [Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4]; Matthew 4:7 [Deuteronomy 6:16]; Matthew 4:10 [Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8]; Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 [Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23]; Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12)

In Luke 1:32, is the Most High (rendered "highest" in some translations) one person, or is it three persons? Most evidently it is one person, not three persons. The trinitarian has to imagine some kind of assumptions that would have to be placed over Luke 1:32 in order to get that verse to harmonize with the added-on trinitarian dogma, but they often run into self-contradictions in trying to apply the trinity assumptions to this verse.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is son of the unipersonal Most High, Yahweh. Jesus is never spoken of as the "Most High"; he is not the only Most High Yahweh of whom he is the son. — Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16.

However, we do not know of any scripture that says that Jehovah (Yahweh) does not honor anyone; however, Yahweh certainly does not honor anyone in the sense of honoring anyone as his superior, if that is what is assumed concerning the word "honor".

Deuteronomy 26:18 and Yahweh has declared you this day to be a people for his own possession, as he has promised you, and that you should keep all his commandments;
Deuteronomy 26:19 and to make you high above all nations that he has made, in praise, and in name, and in honor; and that you may be a holy people to Yahweh your God, as he has spoken.

Was not Yahweh giving honor to the children of Israel in choosing them out of the nations as a people for his name?

And Jesus told his disciples: "If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him." -- John 12:26.

Our trinitarian neighbor tells us that all Honor, worship and praise belong to Jehovah God!

Again, we do not know any scripture that says this. We have looked up the expressions "all honor," "all worship" and "all praise" using Crosswalk's Bible study tools, and provide links to the results below.


CLICK HERE for all praise" (World English)

CLICK HERE for "all worship" (World English)

Nevetheless, there is a usage of the Hebrew word (transliterated "Kol") for "all" that would indicate supreme "all." This usage is found in Deuteronomy 6:5: "You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." (World English) This does not mean that one should love no one else but Yahweh in our hearts, but it does mean to love Yahweh with such fullness that any other love would be in harmony with our love for Yahweh. Likewise, if we use the word "all" in this sense, we can agree with the statement made by our trinitarian neighbor.

Jesus stated: "I honor my Father." (John 8:49) Was this the Most High honoring the Most High?

Paul speaks of seeking honor:
Romans 2:7 - to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruptibility, eternal life

Paul wrote:
Romans 2:10 - glory and honor and peace to every man who works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 13:7 - Give therefore to everyone what you owe: taxes to whom taxes are due; customs to whom customs; respect to whom respect; honor to whom honor.

Ephesians 6:2 - "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with a promise:

Concerning Jesus, we read that the unipersonal God (Hebrews 1:1,2) had crowned him with glory and honor (Hebrews 2:9) while he was in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), having prepared him an incorrupt body that could be presented for sacrifice. -- Hebrews 10:5,10.

See our discussion on Hebrews 1:1-3:
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/772.html

Our trinitarian neighbor tells us that this is why John 5:23 tells us that "ALL MEN" should honor the SON EVEN as they honor the FATHER. Evidently the thought must be that because our trintarian neighbor assumes that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh), that is why Jesus said what he said in John 5:23. Let us look at this:

John 5:23
hina pantes timwsi ton huion kathws
IN ORDER THAT ALL THEY MAY HONOR THE SON ACCORDING AS
2443 3956 5091 3588 5207 2531
timwsi ton patera ho mee timwn ton huion
THEY ARE HONORING THE FATHER. THE (ONE) NOT HONORING THE SON
5091 3588 3962 3588 3361 5091 3588 5207
ou tima ton patera ton pempsanta auton
NOT IS HONORING THE FATHER THE (ONE) HAVING SENT HIM.
3756 5091 3588 3962 3588 3992 0846_7
Westcott & Hort Interlinear

No, there is nothing in this that says that the reason that one should honor Jesus as they honor his Father is because Jesus is the Most High. Indeed, it is the Most High who placed Jesus as the means by which we have access to the only Most High. Jesus' words in verse 23 is relating back to what he had stated in verse 22.

John 5:22 For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23 that all may honor the Son [of the Most High -- Luke 1:32], even as they honor the Father [the Most High]. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent him.

Thus, the reason that this honor is given to the Son of the Most High is because the only Most High has given all judgment to His son (Luke 1:32; Hebrews 2:1,2), that all would honor the Son, even as they honor the only Most High. Since this honor is connected with the authority to judge that was given by the Most High to His son, if the honor means that Jesus is the Most High, then the logical conclusion would be that Jesus became the Most High because the Most High gave him this authority and power. In reality, Jesus is not the Most High, since the Most High no need of anyone to give him authority or power.

Our trinitarian neighbor claims that what we have gotten wrong is that we deny Jesus the Christ's deity AS Jehovah God. In reality, since the Bible never once proclaims Jesus to be Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we have no reason to imagine and assume such. The default reasoning is that Jesus is not the Most High, not that Jesus is the Most High. Indeed, the thing that trinitarians get fundamentally wrong is in promoting the idea that Jesus is Jehovah God, when there is absolutely nothing at all in the entire Bible that reveals Jesus as being Jehovah. In truth, from Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is presented as a unipersonal God. All through the New Testament, forms of the word transliterated as THEOS, when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is always used to speak of one person, and not once as more than one person. Throughout the New Testament, the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is distinguished from His son in hundreds of verses. (Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2) In all of the scriptures claimed to present otherwise, the great spirit of human imagination has be consulted, and the resulting imaginations and assumptions have to added to, and read into, each and every scripture to get added-on dogma appear to be supported by the scripture.

See our presentation on Jesus is not Yahweh:

Our trinitarian neighbor reports that throughout the entire content of inspired scripture, the fact of Christ's identity is clearly taught. We agree with this; the scriptures consistently present Jesus as the son of the Most High, and never once as the Most High of whom he is presented as the son.

However, our trinitarian neighbor tells us that Jesus is revealed as Jehovah God in human form, and he provides a series of scriptures evidently with the thought that those scriptures support the assumption that Jesus is revealed as Jehovah in human form. We will be examining these scriptures one by one below, but we can say that in absolutely none of these scriptures do we find that Jesus is revealed at Jehovah God.

Isaiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:6 (Isaiah 9:5 in the JPS) - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - JPS.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. - World English

The verse speaks of a singular name, not a series of names as most translations like to make it out to be. The child born to Israel was Jesus, spoken of in Isaiah 9:6, and was given by Yahweh, who is spoken of in Isaiah 9:7. When it says the zeal of Yahweh will perform this, does "Yahweh" mean one person, or three persons? The trinitarian has to imagine and assume that Yahweh in verse seven speaks of one of their alleged persons of Yahweh, while the son given by the given the one person of Yahweh is another person of Yahweh. Luke 1:32 refers back to Isaiah 9:6,7, saying: "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. [Yahweh] God will give to him the throne of his father, David." Correlating this with Isaiah 9:6,7, Yahweh is the Most High who gives the son, who is the son of the Most High in Luke 1:32. It should be self-evident that the "Most High" in Luke 1:32 means one person, and not three persons, and that "the son" is not being included as "Most High." Some imagine, assume, add to, and read into this, that Luke 1:32 applies the imagined their "dual nature" theory, and that "son" here must be referring only to the human nature of the son, and not his "nature" as the Most High. Often these same trinitarians will turn right around and say that "Son of God" means that the "Son" has the nature of the only Most High, without realizing the self-contradiction. Others have used the spirit of human imaginations so as to claim that "Most High" simply refers to the Father as the Most High, and that the "son" is still another person of the Most High. At any rate, in reality, the Bible is totally and completely harmonious without using the spirit of human imagination so as to assume and add the idea of a triune God to the scriptures.

As far as Isaiah 9:6,7 is concerned, there is nothing in the verse that reveals the son given to Israel by Yahweh is being Yahweh. It does not say that Yahweh gave himself as the son to Israel; indeed, Yahweh is distinguished from His son in the two verses. The idea that Yahweh became a human being has to be imagined in the spirit of human imagination, the imaginative assumption has to be added to, and read into, what is stated. A God of three persons is definitely not revealed in Isaiah 9:6,7.

CLICK HERE for more information on our websites.


Micah 5:2

Micah 5:2 - But you, O Bethlehem Eph'rathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days. (Revised Standard)
Micah 5:3 Therefore he will abandon them until the time that she who is in labor gives birth. Then the rest of his brothers will return to the children of Israel.
Micah 5:4 He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.

Again, we find nothing that reveals Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob except that one would wish to make it appear to be so. Actually, in the context, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is distinguished from the "ruler", and we are told this ruler (Jesus) will shepherd in the strength of his God, Yahweh. Thus, Jesus, rather than being depicted as the Most High, is shown to be receiving his strength fromm the Most High. Thus in Micah 5:4, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Yahweh) is identified as one person and also as the God of Jesus.

Many translations, based on the assumption that Jesus is God, and thus assuming that he had no begining, like to render Micah 5:2 in some form that would have have Jesus as having no beginning, and by this they would seek to offer Micah 5:2 as proof of their trinitarian dogma. However, it is only in this verse that many trinitarians would like the Hebrew phrase used to mean such, since in all of verses where the phrase is use in the Hebrew, it is rendered in the King James Version and many other translations similar to the way the Revised Standard Version has rendered the phrase in Micah 5:2. Thus, this argument ends up being circular, as we have shown on our other websites.

We have written in more detail concerning Micah 5:2 at:

Isaiah 7:14

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore [Yahweh] himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

His name, Immanuel, means that the God of Jesus is with us. Nothing in such a name means that the bearer of the name is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is definitely nothing in the name Immanuel that says anything about Jesus' being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, nor is there anything in Isaiah 7:14 about Yahweh being more than one person.

See:


John 1:14

John 1:14 The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. (World English)

Yes, the mighty (theos) Word of Yahweh became, or was made, flesh. Having a sinless human body separate from the condemned world (kosmos), he had the full sinless glory of his God as a human being, having the glory "a little lower than the angels". (Romans 3:23; Hebrews 2:9) In the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), he was not of this condemned world, just as his followers, being counted as new creatures, sons of God, are not of this condemned world. -- Matthew 1:20; John 8:23; 17:24; Romans 5:12-19; 2 Corinthians 5:17,21; Philippians 2:15; Galatians 1:4;  Hebrews 7:26; 10:5; 1 Peter 1:4; 2:22; 1 John 3:5.

John 8:68

Jesus declares his existence before Abraham; Jesus did not say that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was certainly NOT declaring his name to be EHYEH of Exodus 3:14, nor is there anything inherent in the verb eimi that means eternal.

John 17:5

Jesus speaks of his glory that he had with the only true God (John 17:3) before the world (kosmos) of mankind was made, and asks the only true God that he might again receive that glory from the only Most High; he says absolutely nothing about having the glory that only belongs to the Most High. Indeed, if this glory were to designate him as the Most High, then this would mean that he did not have the glory of being the Most High while he was on earth, which would be contrary the claims of the trinitarian dogma. Actually, Paul explains the two general levels of glory as the celestial and terrestrial, but he does not mix the two glories. (1 Corinthians 15:40) Jesus did indeed have the mighty celestial glory (John 1:1) with the only true Supreme Being (John 17:3) before he was made flesh, but while he was in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), he did not have that glory.

Exodus 3:14

Exodus 3:14 tells of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob designating his name in two different verb forms, often translated as EHYEH, YAHWEH to Moses. EHYEH and YAHWEH are two forms of the same name.
CLICK HERE to search the RL sites for Exodus 3:14 for more information:


Hebrews 1:3

"God" is one person, nor more than one person in Hebrews 1:1-3:


Philippians 2:11

Every tongue is to confess that Jesus is Anointed of Yahweh, that Yahweh has made him lord, to the glory of Yahweh; nothing in this means that Jesus is Yahweh. -- Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36.


Colossians 2:9

Yahweh has given the plentitude of mightiness to Jesus in his mighty spiritual body so that he may carry out the work that Yahweh has given to him. (Colossians 2:10) Nothing in this means that Jesus is Yahweh.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/369.html

Revelation 1:8,17-18
Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God of Jesus that is spoken of the context.

Jesus was the first and the last firstborn from the dead. When the trinitarian applies his added-on "dual nature" theory to try to explain "the first and the last" as meaning God Most High, he finds himself in a self-contradiction, since they would end claiming that the alleged "God nature" "was dead".

http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/ao-01/
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/66.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/325.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/911.html

Our trinitarian neighbor claims that the deity of Jesus Christ is one of the cornerstones of Christianity. While we do not contradict the deity of Jesus in the power, the strength, that he has received from his God, in harmony with the Hebraic usage of the word for deity, the trinitarian goes beyond the Biblical usage to proclaim that Jesus' deity means that he is the Most High. In actuality, this doctrine was proclaimed so by men who perverted the ransom sacrifice of Jesus and replaced that ransom sacrifice with a doctrine that had to imagined by means of the spirit of human imagination, that has to formulated into dogma, and then that dogma has to be added to, and read into, the scriptures.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/1205.html
Click Here for our study: Hebraic Usages of the Words for "God"

We are not with the JWs, and thus have no reason to submit to their leadership. We do not proclaim the scriptural truths of the Bible because of what Arius stated (who knows for sure what Arius taught, since practically everything he wrote was systematically destroyed by the Athanasian sect). Nor do we proclaim the scriptural truths simply because of what Russell, the JWs, or anyone else may say. Our conclusions are our own, whether they agree or disagree with Russell, Arius, or the Watchtower Society. We proclaim the Bible truth because we have personally examined the scriptures, to see if Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and found nothing in the scriptures that shows him to be such. We have personally examined the scriptures to see if the trinitarian dogma can be harmonized the the scriptural basis of Christ's sacrifice, and found that it cannot be so harmonized with that fundamental doctrine of salvation. Thus the trinitarian dogma has to a great extent supplanted the scriptural basis of our redemption.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/1238.html

Yes, the testimony of the scripture stands sure: Jesus is indeed the son of the Most High; he is not the Most High of whom he is the son. Jesus did indeed give himself, his human flesh, soul, body, blood, once for all eternity as a ransom sacrifice for sin, which sacrifice the trinitarian dogma would logically end up denying. The scriptures presented by our trinitarian neighbor offers nothing at all to silence the overall testimony of the scriptures pertaining to the "ransom for all," nor do they give any proof at all that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Scriptures such as Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6; 1 Timothy 1:17, let us know that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is one, not three. This one person is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Praise Yahweh! Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, who is "one God" and Father of all. -- Exodus 3:6,13,14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Psalm 103:1; Isaiah 61:1; John 17:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3; 4:6; 1 Peter 1:3.
http://atonement.reslight.net/archives/1.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/263.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/general-comments
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/103.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/958.html

Added May 28, 2010

Our trinitarian neighbor has responded that we have failed to disprove Christ's deity. Evidently the studies linked to above have been ignored; nevertheless, we have no desire to disprove Christ's deity, but rather we show that the Hebrew/Greek words for deity are used of others than Yahweh and false gods.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/category/names/deity
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/19.html


However, the default assumption is that Jesus is not the only true God, since he plainly stated that he was sent by the only true God. (John 17:1,3) Thus the onus is on the one who claims otherwise to prove such. It is not for me to prove that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, although the scriptures over and over and over and over distinguish between the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the one sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and one sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as we have shown in the links provided.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/263.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/591.html


Our trinitarian neighbor asks regarding Isaiah 9:6, "if this is not a prophecy regarding Christ and his identity..then who?" It is indeed a prophecy regarding Christ as the one sent by Yahweh of hosts (Isaiah 9:7), as we have explained in the studies linked; the singular name, however, describes the God of the one sent, not the one being sent.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/category/names/mightygod

Regarding Immanuel:
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/1221.html

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