We should note that the ancient Hebrew did not have punctuation. We have to be careful in understanding who is saying what. Any punctuation found in copies or translations has been supplied by men. Once one understands who is speaking which words, one can properly add quote marks to these verses. We believe the verses involved should be punctuated as follows:
Zechariah 2:8 For this is what Jehovah of hosts says (for glory he has sent me to the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye):
Zechariah 2:9 "Behold, I will shake my hand against them, and they will become spoil for their servants." Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me.
Zechariah 2:10 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says Jehovah.
Zechariah 2:11 Many nations will be joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will become my people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me to you.
Thus the angel is the one who says: "Then you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me." This statement is sandwiched between two quotes from Jehovah, one before: "For surely I will shake my hand against them, and they will become spoil for their servants," and the other after: "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst."
Earlier we see that an angel of Jehovah is speaking and then another angel appears who begins to speak. (Zechariah 1:12; 2:1,3) It is this angel that is speaking in verses 8 through 11. He speaks of himself as being sent by Jehovah in verse 11. Many Bible Students believe that this angel is Jesus -- or, at least, represents Jesus typically.
The New American Catholic Bible renders these verses this way (without identifying exactly who is saying what, except for the parenthetical phrase):
For thus said the LORD of hosts (after he had already sent me) concerning the nations that have plundered you: Whoever touches you touches the apple of my eye. See I wave my hand over them; they become plunder for their slaves. Thus you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daugher of Zion! See, I am coming to dwell among you, says the LORD. Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day, and they shall be his people, and he will dwell among you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
Note that this is speaking of when many nations are joined to Jehovah which takes place in the millennial age, when Satan deceives the nations no more. (Revelation 20:3; Isaiah 25:7,8; 2:2,3) This is done through Jesus. (Acts 17:31) At that time also the New Jerusalem will belong to Jesus and be his people; Jesus will dwell in the midst of New Jerusalem, even as Jehovah will also dwell with New Jerusalem and all mankind. (Revelation 21:1-5) God's Kingdom with Jesus ruling as King will be enlarged to include all nations, not merely Israel. -- Jeremiah 12:14-17; Romans 4:13; Zechariah 8:20-21; Isaiah 2:3; Micah 4:2.
"Jehovah your God is one Jehovah." -- Deuteronomy 6:4
He is not two or three Jehovahs, as though there can be one Jehovah who sends another Jehovah.
The one Jehovah (the Father, the only true God -- John 17:1,3) says to the Lord of David: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. These scriptures in themselves prove that Jesus is NOT Jehovah. -- Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Peter 3:22
Only if one runs all that is stated together without giving recognition to who is saying what could one read into the verses that Jehovah is sending Jehovah. Common sense should tell us that the angel is speaking and quotes Jehovah, and speaks of himself at other times. What we have presented is the default reasoning: that the angel is speaking and quoting Jehovah while he speaks. One can find quotes like this in Psalms and many times in the writings of the prophets, so it is nothing at all unusual. We are just called upon to use our common sense, and not be blinded by preconceived doctrine so as to read into the verses something that is not there.
For example, Isaiah 8:1-3. One could read verse three as a continuation of the quotation of Jehovah's words in verse one, thus making it appear that Jehovah is the one who went to the prophetess, but common sense tells us that Isaiah stopped quoting Jehovah and began referring to himself. Of course, if one were convinced that Isaiah was Jehovah himself, one could read this as saying that Jehovah went to the prophetess. Common sense tells us otherwise.
The second Psalm is another example. David, of course, is speaking, but he quotes both Jehovah and Jesus as speaking. If one were to run all these verses together without making proper qualifications as to who is speaking, one could even conclude that David is Jehovah. Of course, our common sense tell us that David speaks as himself at times, and then quotes Jehovah and Jesus, and many translations make this apparent by adding punctuation.
Likewise in Psalm 46. The Psalmist speaks, saying:
Psalm 46:9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth. He breaks the bow, and cuts the spear apart. He burns the chariots in the fire.
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth.
Psalm 46:11 Jehovah of Hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our refuge.
Psalm 46:9 He makes wars cease to the end of the earth. He breaks the bow, and cuts the spear apart. He burns the chariots in the fire.
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth.
Psalm 46:11 Jehovah of Hosts is with us. The God of Jacob is our refuge.
If one wanted to believe that this Psalmist was God, one could disregard the fact that he is quoting Jehovah in verse 10, so as to claim that the Psalmist was himself speaking as God. *The World English* translation and many other translations do supply quotes for verse 10, thus designating these words are the Psalmist's quote of God.
What we do not find in Zechariah 2 is any reference to two or three persons in Jehovah, or that Jesus is one person of Jehovah who sent by another person of Jehovah. Such an idea has to be imagined, assumed and then read into what is being said.
You simply changed around the punctuation. Clearly, when you contextualize the scripture, it forces you to accept that Yahweh is indeed sending Yahweh. How can you conflate the angel and a multi-personal Yahweh figure here?
ReplyDeleteThe ancient Hebrew had no punctuation, so where and how it is punctuated in English and other modern languages depends on how one views who is saying what. We believe we have already presented how contextually it should be understood.
DeleteWe do not know what is thought be conflated concerning an angel and an imagined and assumed multi-personal Jehovah, so in order to respond to such a statement, we would have know exactly is being referred to.
In truth, from Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14,15), is presented as only one person who raised up the prophet like Moses from among the sons of Israel, and who raised that prophet from death. (Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2) All through the New Testament, forms of the word transliterated as THEOS, when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are always used to speak of one person, and not once as more than one person. Throughout the New Testament, the one person who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is distinguished from His son, as can be seen from Acts 3:13-26; 17:29-31 and Hebrews 1:1,2.
Jehovah, the God and Father of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3), is the Only one who is the source of all (1 Corinthians 8:6), and hence the only one person in the entire universe who is the Supreme Being. It was the one person who is Jehovah who anointed and sent Jesus (Isaiah 61:1; John 17:1,3), prepared a body of flesh for Jesus (Hebrews 10:5), and made Jesus a little lower than the angels so that Jesus could offer that body of flesh with its blood to Jehovah his God for our sins. -- Matthew 26:26-28; Luke 22:19; Romans 3:25; Colossians 1:14; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 2:9; 9:14; 10:10; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5.
Any thought that Jehovah is more than one person has to imagined beyond what is actually stated, assumptions have formulated beyond what is stated, and then what has been imagined and assumed has to be added to, and read into, any scripture thought to be speaking of Jehovah as more than one person. There is definitely nothing in Zechariah that says that Jehovah is more than one person or individual, and definitely nothing that says that the Son of Jehovah is Jehovah and that Jehovah is more than one person and that the son of Jehovah is a person of Jehovah, etc, etc.
I agree 100% with the anonymous author who wrote,"
DeleteAnonymousJanuary 14, 2020 at 7:03 PM
You simply changed around the punctuation. Clearly, when you contextualize the scripture, it forces you to accept that Yahweh is indeed sending Yahweh. How can you conflate the angel and a multi-personal Yahweh figure here? Here's why. There are many prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures where y'all way God promise to come and dwell amongst his People Israel:
Exodus 29:45
"I WILL DWELL among the sons of Israel and will be their God.
Exodus 29:46
"They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I MIGHT DWELL AMONG THEM; I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD.
Ezekiel 43:9
"Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM FOREVER.
Zechariah 2:10
"Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I WILL DWELL IN YOUR MIDST," declares the LORD.
When Yahweh Comes As The Messiah, He Will God Sent By Yahweh Of Hosts to Dwell Among The Israelites:
Zechariah 2:11
"Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you
YAHWAH/ JEHOVAH OF HOSTS HAS SENT ME TO YOU (see also nwt).”
Note: Yahwah/ Jehovah will come to dwell among his people Zion and he will be sent by Yahweh/Jehovah of hosts. (I'm still looking for a god like Angelic being, representative)
If Jehovah will come and dwell among his people, Zion in what form will he come?
2) He will come as a human child Isaiah 9:6
DeleteIsaiah saying, “for a child will be born to us a son will be giving to us and the government will rest on his shoulders and his name will be called wonderful counselor Mighty God Eternal Father Prince of Peace.”
Note: Yahweh, the Mighty God, Eternal Father, will come to us in a human form, born as a child (see also Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel) when that child is born, he will be given a special name. What would that name be and what does it mean?
There is nothing at all in Isaiah 9:6 that says that Jehovah, the "one God" of whom are all (1 Corinthians 8:6) comes as a human child, or that He comes to us in a human form. It is Jehovah of Hosts of Isaiah 9:7 that gives to Israel (and the world) this son>
DeleteFor links to some of our related studies, see:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/p/mighty-god.html
UNKNOWN atates: "I agree 100% with the anonymous author who wrote," AnonymousJanuary 14, 2020 at 7:03 PM You simply changed around the punctuation."
DeleteThere was no punctuation at all in the ancient Hebrew. We simply give the punctuation in harmony with the context and in harmony with the rest of the Bible, which consistently presents Jehovah as being only one person.
Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not Jehovah, the Supreme Being, but rather Jesus worships, prays to, Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He who anointed and sent Jesus. Jesus differentiates himself from being his God, whose will Jesus carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Matthew 4:4; Matthew 4:7; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:4; Matthew 4:7; Matthew 4:10; Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6; Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 4:8; Luke 22:42; John 3:34; 5:30; 6:38; 10:36; 17:1,3; 20:17; Acts 3:13-26; Romans 15:6; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; 4:6; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
Jesus speaks the words given to him from the only true Supreme Being, who sent Jesus. Hebrews 1:1,2 distinguishes Jesus from being the God who spoke through his prophets Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not once in any scripture is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob presented as being more than one person or individual, and not once is Jesus presented as being a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One can imagine and assume that to be case, and read what they have imagined and assumed into the scriptures, but such imaginative assumptions do not mean that it is a reality. -- Exodus 3:13,14; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 3:34; 5:19; 6:29; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,42; 10:36; 12:44-50; 14:10,24; 17:1,3,8; Acts 3:13-26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9,10.
He who is the God and Father of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3), is the Only one who is the source of all (1 Corinthians 8:6), and hence the only one person who is the "one God" -- One Mighty One, of whom are all. Jehovah is He who anointed and sent Jesus (Isaiah 61:1; John 17:1,3), prepared a body of flesh for Jesus (Hebrews 10:5), and made Jesus a little lower than the angels so that Jesus could offer that body of flesh with its blood to Jehovah his God for our sins. Jesus did offer Himself to Himself. -- Matthew 26:26-28; Luke 22:19; Romans 3:25; Colossians 1:14; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 2:9; 9:14; 10:10; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5.
It is the God and Father of Jesus who has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, the one Lord through whom are all (Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1,2; Acts 2:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6), and has exalted him to the highest position in the universe, far above the angels, next to the only Most High.-- Acts 2:33,36; 5:31; Philippians 2:9; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Hebrews 1:4,6; 1 Peter 3:22.
It was the God and Father of Jesus (Ephesians 1:3) who made the covenant with Abraham and the seed of Abraham -- which is Christ (Genesis 22:15-18; Galatians 3:14,16; Luke 22:29) by which the Father -- Jehovah -- will bless all the nations,, and it was the God and Father of Jesus who raised Jesus up as His prophet who is like Moses. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26.
The default reasoning is therefore that Jesus is NOT Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who sanctified and sent His son into the world of mankind. -- Isaiah 61:1; John 3:17; 5:36,37; 6:38,57; 8:42; 10:36; 17:1,3; Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9-14.
UNKNOWN state: "Clearly, when you contextualize the scripture, it forces you to accept that Yahweh is indeed sending Yahweh."
There is only one Jehovah, and that one Jehovah is identified by Jesus and the apostle Paul as being only one person, that is, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. -- Isaiah 61:1; John 17:1,3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Hebrews 1:1,2.
ANONYMOUS states: "How can you conflate the angel and a multi-personal Yahweh figure here?"
DeleteSince there is nothing here or anywhere else in the Bible that presents Jehovah, the "one God" of whom are all," as being more than one person, I can only assume that one imagines and assumes that Jehovah is sending Himself in this verse because of man's added-on trinitarian dogma, which imagines, assumes, adds to, and read into the scriptures that Jehovah (Yahweh) is three persons.
=================
ANONYMOUS states:
Begin quote:
Here's why. There are many prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures where y'all way God promise to come and dwell amongst his People Israel: Exodus 29:45 "I WILL DWELL among the sons of Israel and will be their God. Exodus 29:46 "They shall know that I am the LORD their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt, that I MIGHT DWELL AMONG THEM; I AM THE LORD THEIR GOD. Ezekiel 43:9 "Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I WILL DWELL AMONG THEM FOREVER. Zechariah 2:10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I WILL DWELL IN YOUR MIDST," declares the LORD. When Yahweh Comes As The Messiah, He Will God Sent By Yahweh Of Hosts to Dwell Among The Israelites: Zechariah 2:11 "Many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you YAHWAH/ JEHOVAH OF HOSTS HAS SENT ME TO YOU (see also nwt).” Note: Yahwah/ Jehovah will come to dwell among his people Zion and he will be sent by Yahweh/Jehovah of hosts. (I'm still looking for a god like Angelic being, representative) If Jehovah will come and dwell among his people, Zion in what form will he come? -- End quote.
There is nothing in the above scriptures that calls for one to imagine, assume, add to, and read into the scriptures that Jehovah is more than one person, and the Jehovah is three persons, and that Jesus is is one of the person of Jehovah, and thus that it is one person of Jehovah who sends another person of Jehovah, etc., etc.
One could use that kind of deceptive trickery to prove that Moses is Jehovah, or that many of the judges of Israel are all Jehovah, etc. We should note that Moses is even referred to as ELOHIM in Exodus 7:1. It was Jehovah who brought the children of Israel out of Egypt (Exodus 3:8; 12:51; Deuteronomy 32:12). However, the scriptures say that it was Moses who brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. (Exodus 3:10; 15:22) According to reasoning many use to allegedly prove Jesus is Jehovah, if the same reasoning is applied to Moses, then Moses must also be Jehovah. Actually, as with Jesus (1 Corinthians 8:6), Jehovah is the principle, and Moses is the means. (Psalm 77:20; Hosea 12:13) Such similarities do not prove that Moses is Jehovah, nor do such similarities prove the Jesus is Jehovah. Indeed, the scriptures abound with cases where Jehovah uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force. -- Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc. See our study on Similarities.
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/06/similarities.html
The angels, however, are refered to as ELOHIM in Psalm 8:5 (see Hebrews 2:7). For our study on the Biblical usage of the Hebrew and Greek words for "GOD" see:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/09/hebraicusage.html
Not being with the JWs, we disagree with their punctuation of Zechariah 2:11. We are not sure how they explain that verse.