By Ronald R. Day, Sr.Proverbs 8:22: Yahweh [Jehovah] had constituted me the beginning of his way, before his works, at the commencement of that time;
Proverbs 8:23: At the outset of the ages had I been established, in advance of the antiquities of the earth. -- Rotherham.
Many believe that Proverbs 8:22-31 refers to the Messiah. If this is so, we should realize that it is only these verses in Proverbs that would apply to the Messiah. In other words, the word wisdom used in other verses in Proverbs aside from these would not be referring to the Messiah. Without a scripture directly linking these verses to the Messiah, we cannot be certain that these verses actually speak of the Messiah. For this study, we will assume that these verses do apply to the Messiah.
The New Revised Standard renders Proverbs 8:22,23 like this:
The New Revised Standard renders Proverbs 8:22,23 like this:
The Lord [that is, Jehovah] created [qanah] me at the beginning of his work [derek], the first of his acts of long ago. Ages [olam] ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth -- New Revised Standard Version, Hebrew words transliterated.
Brown-Driver-Briggs gives one of the meanings of QANAH (Strong's #7069) as:
a. of God as originating, creating, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6 (Israel), Psalm 139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Proverbs 8:22 ( חכמה q. v.).The context indicates that this is meaning of qanah in Proverbs 8:22.
However, many translations read similar to the World English translation: "Yahweh [Jehovah] possessed me in the beginning of his work, Before his deeds of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth existed."
Thus it is argued that this is proof that Jesus has always existed in eternity past, having some kind of mystical perpetual state of being begotten in eternity, and that therefore Jesus is Jehovah, who is from everlasting to everlasting.
We should note that Jehovah and Wisdom are spoken of as two entities, not one. The context, as well, bears this out.
Jesus is spoken of as the beginning of the way [some translations render the Hebrew word transliterated as derek as work, as in the NRSV] of Jehovah. This indicates that he was the first of God's living creatures; that with him Jehovah had begun his "way" or "journey" -- his work -- of creating living beings.
Although in some contexts the Hebrew olam evidently takes on the meaning "eternal" or "everlasting", it does not always mean such. Since the context states a beginning, and that the one being spoken of is "brought forth", then olam should not be regarded as eternal, but rather "old" "ages ago" or "ancient", similar to Genesis 6:4; Joshua 24:2; 1 Samuel 27:8; Psalm 119:52; -- as well as many other places. See also Proverbs 22:28; 23:20 where olam is translated in the KJV as "ancient".
Indeed, the word olam, when used of the past, very seldom actually means eternal. This can be seen by its usage in the following scriptures: Genesis 6:4; Deuteronomy 32:7; 1 Samuel 27:28; Ezra 4:15,19; Job 22:15; Proverbs 22:8; 23:10; Isaiah 51:9; 58:12; 61:4; 63:9,11; Jeremiah 6:16; 18:15; 28:8; Jonah 2:6; Micah 7:14; Malachi 3:4, as well as many others.
Only in reference to Jehovah's existence in the past, does it take on the meaning of eternal past. (Psalm 90:2) "Even then, it still expresses the idea of continued, measurable existence, rather than a state of being independent of time considerations." -- "Lexical Aids to the Old Testament", under #5769, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible.
The Lord [Jehovah] made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. -- Basic English.
The LORD [Jehovah] made me as the beginning of His way, the first of His works of old. -- Jewish Publication Society.
The LORD [Jehovah] formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else -- New Living Bible.
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. -- New Revised Standard.
The word qanah, translated "possessed" in the KJV and "constituted" by Rotherham, is translated with "created", "formed", or "made" by many other translations: Jerusalem Bible 1966 * Revised Standard Version 1952 * New English Bible 1970 * Thomson's Septuagint 1808 * Brenton's Septuagint 1879 * Confraternity Version (Catholic) 1955 * Lesser * Today's English Version 1972 * Lamsa 1957.
The following is obtained from: http://www.heraldmag.org/2001/01so_3.htm by Jeff MezeraThere are differences about the meaning of the word qanah in Proverbs 8:22 as to whether it means “possessed” or “created.” From a footnote on the NET translation of Proverbs 8:22 found at www.bible.org [now at https://netbible.org/bible/Proverbs+8]: “There are two roots in Hebrew, one meaning ‘to possess,’ and the other meaning ‘to create.’ The older translations did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Genesis 4:1; 14:19; Deuteronomy 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation ‘possess’ because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation ‘create.’ Athanasius translated it, ‘constituted me as the head of creation.’ The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of ‘to acquire’; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning ‘create.’ Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (‘appointed,’ ‘given birth’) argue for the translation of ‘create’ or ‘establish’ (R. N. Whybray, ‘Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,’VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, ‘Where Will Wisdom Be Found?’ JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).” Many translators render qanahas “created.”.
“Gesenius gives as the primary meaning of qanah: ‘to get, to gain, to obtain, to acquire.’ Davies gives it the meaning of ‘to form or make, to get or acquire, to gain or buy.’ Strong defines qanah as ‘to erect, i.e., to create; by extension to procure, especially by purchase.’ ” —The Great Debate, by Robert Wagoner
Regardless of the controversy surrounding the meaning of this word, contextually Wisdom is still spoken of as being “brought forth”: "When there were no depths, I was brought forth" (Proverbs 8:24). The Hebrew word translated “brought forth” means “to be brought forth, to be born.” Wisdom was indeed “brought forth” and this helps us understand the context and meaning of this chapter and especially what “possessed” means in verse 22.
“Then I was by him, as one brought up [Strong’s #525: “artificer, architect, master workman, skilled workman”] with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him” (Proverbs 8:30). Not only can the word “possess” in this context have the meaning of “create” as translated in the Septuagint and Syriac, but we also see that Wisdom was brought up, was trained, and was the master workman of God’s creative works.
Yes, Jesus is the master workman of God’s creative works! He was the first of Jehovah’s creative acts, and it was with his assistance that all other things came into being. Truly this great being who plays so many important roles in the great plan of the ages is worthy of our adoration and worship! -- "The Image of the Invisible God" By Jeff Mezera. Herald of Christ's Kingdom, September-October, 2001.
In verses 23-27 we read of the prehuman Wisdom: "Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world's first bits of soil." -- New Revised Standard Version.
From this we learn that the time when Jesus was begotten, brought forth, was at the first, a point in time which is definitely before the beginning of the earth and formation of its surface. There is nothing here that would indicate that Jesus is in some mystical state of eternally being brought forth or begotten.
Verse 30 says: "then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, " -- NRSV.
Again, we find that Jesus speaks of himself in his prehuman condition as "beside" Jehovah, not that he was Jehovah whom he was beside.
Of course, those who contend that Jesus is Jehovah have found their own arguments for the reasons for the wording of this chapter regarding Wisdom, but the chapter itself offers no proof that Jesus existed from an eternal past, nor that Jesus is Jehovah. In other words, the argument that Jesus is Jehovah becomes circular, in effect saying: because we believe that Jesus is Jehovah, we believe the passage means this or that, and therefore the meaning we give the passage because we believe that Jesus is Jehovah proves that Jesus is Jehovah.
There is definitely nothing in Proverbs 8:22,23 that proves that Jesus is Jehovah, and certainly, there is nothing here to give us reason to add to the scriptures the story of three persons in one being, or that there are three modes of Jehovah.
Wisdom Personified as a Woman
Some claim that in Proverbs 8, wisdom is being personified as a woman, and that it has no reference to Jesus. In Proverbs 8:22, we read that Wisdom personified states:
Wisdom Personified as a Woman
Some claim that in Proverbs 8, wisdom is being personified as a woman, and that it has no reference to Jesus. In Proverbs 8:22, we read that Wisdom personified states:
{Proverbs 8:22} "Jehovah created me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.
{Proverbs 8:23} I was set up from ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth existed.
{Proverbs 8:24} When there were no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
{Proverbs 8:25} Before the mountains were settled in place, before the mountains, I was brought forth;
{Proverbs 8:26} while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
{Proverbs 8:27} When he established the heavens, I was there; when he set a circle on the surface of the depths,
{Proverbs 8:28} when he established the clouds above, when the springs of the depths became strong,
{Proverbs 8:29} when he gave to the sea its boundary, that the waters should not violate his commandment, when he marked out the foundations of the earth;
{Proverbs 8:30} then I was the master craftsman by his side. I was a delight day by day, always rejoicing before him,
{Proverbs 8:31} Rejoicing in the habitation of his earth. My delight was with the sons of men. -- Restoration Light Improved Version.
Proverbs 8:22 - [Jehovah] created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
-- Revised Standard, Holy Name restored.
The claim is that Wisdom is personified as a woman in earlier verses; however, the subject in those earlier verses do not appear to be about Christ, until we get to Proverbs 8:22. Nevertheless, some point to Proverbs 8:1, which the American Standard Version, renders as;
Proverbs 8:1 - Doth not wisdom cry, And understanding put forth her voice?
Proverbs 8:1 - Doth not wisdom cry, And understanding put forth her voice?
See Bible Hub's Hebrew analysis of Proverbs 8:1.
Many English-speaking people who make this claim may not understand gender agreement in ancient Hebrew. We have found that even when one has studied some of the Latin languages which calls for similar gender agreement, they fail to appreciate, or else ignore, that the ancient Hebrew also called for gender agreement.
There is actually no neuter gender in Biblical Hebrew. All nouns carry either a feminine or masculine gender, even if they are not a male or female. The gender of a word cannot be used to designate a person as being a woman or male, or even a person, or not a person. In Hebrew, the word for wisdom is often transliterated as chokmah (Strong's #2452), which is feminine, and thus in Hebrew, gender agreement would call for feminine nouns and pronouns in describing wisdom. Although there is actually no feminine pronoun in the Hebrew that corresponds with "her" in "her voice", many translators add that pronoun before "voice" due to the fact the word for wisdom is feminine. Generally, in English, we would refer to wisdom as an "it," but evidently because later in the chapter Wisdom is personified as speaking, translators use "her" in verse 1, giving the false impression that Wisdom is being spoken of as a woman. The Hebrew, however, is not actually presenting Wisdom as being a lady/woman; it is simply that the noun gender is feminine in the Hebrew. Often, however, translators ignore the gender and do use neuter pronouns in English related to an object that is not actually a male of female.
In Proverbs 8:30, Wisdom is described as a master craftsman, which, in the Hebrew texts is masculine. Again, in Hebrew such would call for the use of a masculine pronoun or other descriptive noun related to this, although such is not called for in verse 30.
Many English-speaking people who make this claim may not understand gender agreement in ancient Hebrew. We have found that even when one has studied some of the Latin languages which calls for similar gender agreement, they fail to appreciate, or else ignore, that the ancient Hebrew also called for gender agreement.
There is actually no neuter gender in Biblical Hebrew. All nouns carry either a feminine or masculine gender, even if they are not a male or female. The gender of a word cannot be used to designate a person as being a woman or male, or even a person, or not a person. In Hebrew, the word for wisdom is often transliterated as chokmah (Strong's #2452), which is feminine, and thus in Hebrew, gender agreement would call for feminine nouns and pronouns in describing wisdom. Although there is actually no feminine pronoun in the Hebrew that corresponds with "her" in "her voice", many translators add that pronoun before "voice" due to the fact the word for wisdom is feminine. Generally, in English, we would refer to wisdom as an "it," but evidently because later in the chapter Wisdom is personified as speaking, translators use "her" in verse 1, giving the false impression that Wisdom is being spoken of as a woman. The Hebrew, however, is not actually presenting Wisdom as being a lady/woman; it is simply that the noun gender is feminine in the Hebrew. Often, however, translators ignore the gender and do use neuter pronouns in English related to an object that is not actually a male of female.
In Proverbs 8:30, Wisdom is described as a master craftsman, which, in the Hebrew texts is masculine. Again, in Hebrew such would call for the use of a masculine pronoun or other descriptive noun related to this, although such is not called for in verse 30.
Of course, we would not be dogmatic about it, but we do believe that in verse 22, it does describe God's Son, who is the ultimate personification of God's wisdom that those who accept him can appreciate. There are definitely two different entities in Proverbs 8;22-30. Since Wisdom personified says, "I was brought forth", this indicates that in these verses Wisdom is indeed speaking as a person. God's own wisdom has been in existence as long as God himself, and since God has always existed, so has his wisdom always existed, and never had to be brought forth. Jesus, however, was "brought forth", as indicated in the second part of the word "firstborn" as used in Colossians 1:15.
We know that Jehovah had no beginning, and that there has never been a beginning of Jehovah's own internal wisdom. Thus "the beginning" and "His way" is not referring to the beginning Jehovah's own internal wisdom, and therefore the conclusion is that this is speaking of Wisdom personified in the firstborn Son of God (Colossians 1:15). "His way" then is evidently referring to the beginning of Jehovah's way of creating other life forms than Himself --- and yet creation before His works of creation of other spirit sons of God and the world of mankind.
If these words of Proverbs 8:22,23 are applied to the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15), then it is designating that the Logos -- personified and presented under the figure of Wisdom -- was brought forth into being before any other of God's living creatures, whether invisible in heavens, as the "sons of God" spoken of in Job 38:4-7, or on earth, visible. (Colossians 1:16) With the creation of his firstborn creature, the beginning of Jehovah's way (derek) toward other intelligence than his own had begun. At the same time, this was before Jehovah had created "his works" (plural) of bringing into being many spirit sons of God (Job 38:7), as well as before the beginning of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. Job 38:4-7 lets us know that the spirit "sons of God" were created before the "beginning" spoken of in Genesis 1:1.
The Lord [that is, Jehovah] created [qanah] me at the beginning of his work [derek], the first of his acts of long ago. Ages [olam] ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth — New Revised Standard Version, Hebrew words transliterated.
Thus, we conclude that as a living creature under the figure of Wisdom in this translation, this would be speaking of Jehovah as having "created" him. Again, one should realize that God's internal wisdom itself, of course, does not need to be created, but the firstborn creature who is represented under the figure of Wisdom did need to be created.
We cannot be 100% certain that Proverbs 8:22-30 is actually speaking of Jesus, but there is much evidence that leads to that conclusion. However, it should be apparent that Wisdom is not speaking of Jesus throughout the book of Proverbs, but only in these verses could we see Wisdom be referring to Jesus..
“Something similar is also read in Proverbs, of the personification of the Wisdom, who is the Christ: »The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways for his works. He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth: even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth: before the mountains were settled and before all hills, he begets me.« Here, the word »created« should not confuse us, since in the Hebrew text, there is no »created«, which is expressed with BARA, but »possessed«. For it is written: »ADONAI CANANI BRESITH DERCHO«, which in our language means: »The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his ways«. However, there is a great difference between »possession« and »creation«. Possession signifies that the Son has always been in the Father, and the Father in the Son. But creation is the beginning of a new state of that, which did not exist before.”
ReplyDelete(Jerome - Letter 140)
The above is not clearly presented. It appears to be presenting everything stated as being found in Jerome's Letter #140. I am not sure what the reference to Jerome's Letter #140 is about. I did some searches on the internet, but was unable to find who exactly is being quoted. At any rate, I decided to forget about the reference to Jerome's Letter 140 and address what is stated.
ReplyDeleteOf course, the fact that the Hebrew word often transliterated as BARA does not appear in Proverbs 8:22 does not rule out that Solomon meant the form of the Hebrew word often transliterated as "qanah" in Proverbs 8:22 is meant in the sense of get, aquire, hence of creating. Indeed, that is sense that Brown-Driver-Briggs gives the meaning in Proverbs 8:22 and several other verses.
"1 get, acquire (all poetry) :
a. of God as originating, creating, קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ Genesis 14:19,22; Deuteronomy 32:6 (Israel), Psalm 139:13 (כִּלְֹיתָ֑י); Proverbs 8:22 ( חכמה q. v.)."
Many trinitarian scholars may agree with this, but they usally deny that it is referring to Jesus.
Whoever wrote the above claims that the Hebrew text reads "ADONAI CANANI BRESITH DERCHO". Obviously, this is someone's transliteration being attributed to what is claimed is said in Proverbs 8:22. The truth is that no form of the Hebrew word ADON (Strong's #113,#136, etc.) appears in the Hebrew texts of Proverbs 8:22 at all. he Hebrew text of Proverbs 8:22 shows God by his Holy Name, often rendered into English as Jehovah or Yahweh. God's Holy Name is definitely not ADONAI, LORD, the LORD, GOD, etc. The following translations render present Proverbs 8:22 with a form of the Holy Name in English:
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, from then, before His works. -- Green's Literal Translation.
Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then. -- Young's Literal Translation.
Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, Before his deeds of old. -- World English.
Yahweh possessed me, [the] first of his ways, before his acts {of old}. -- Lexham English Bible.
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. -- Darby Translation.
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. -- American Standard Version.
While all of these translations properly do not present God's Holy Name as "the Lord" or "ADONAI", I do believe they err in presenting the Hebrew form transliterated as "qā-nā-nî" with the English word "possessed". But whether it is rendered as created or possessed, it really does not matter.
It is asserted that "possession signifies that the Son has always been in the Father." Of course, if Jehovah possessed Jesus at the beginning of his way, this does not mean that we need to imagine, assume and read into the scripture that possession means that Jesus has always in all eternity past been with Jehovah, Jesus' God and Father. Applying this to Jesus would simply mean that Jesus' God had possessed Jesus at athe beginning of his work. Such would imply that Jesus was existence before Jehovah began his work of creation. The work spoken of could be referring to beginning of his work of bringing forth the sons of God spoken of in Job 38:4-7. Often, however, in the Bible, God's works are pertaining to his work toward mankind. Thus, while the sons of God of Job 38:4-7 were already in existence before the events of Genesis 1, the scripture speaks of that work as the beginning of the creation being spoken of. According to Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17, the "beginning" spoken of in Genesis 1:1 would include all the six days of creation being spoken of in Genesis 1. Thus, if Jehovah already possessed Jesus at that beginning, it would not signify that Jesus had aways existed, but simply that his God had brought him forth before the beginning of the creation of the world of mankind.
The Scriptures do not say so, since angels did not "exist" in the beginning, but were created in the beginning. Angels were not "present" at the creation of the world, since they were also created "in the beginning", and especially they did not participate in the creation at all. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, was present at creation, see Genesis 1:2 (cf. Job 33:4, Psalm104:30), which the NWT also mistranslates.
ReplyDeleteAt the beginning of time, God created the angelic world. "In the beginning God created the heaven AND the earth", which they generally interpreted as "In the beginning, God created the visible AND invisible world." If, on the other hand, we consistently consider the essential assignment of the angelic world to the human world, then simultaneous creation is logical.
Job does not contradict, since 38:4–7 can be interpreted for the second story of creation (Genesis 2. chapter), which is mainly about man and man's relation to the world and society.
Genesis 1:26 - God does not speak to the angels, but it is either a plural of majesty (as 'Elohim' is also plural), or to the Son, who is not "of the angels". Augustine vigorously opposed Philo's explanation that at the beginning of Scripture (Gen 1:20-26) God would have called on the angels to be his helpers in creation (August. Gen. ad litt. IX 15, 26 - 28 Civ. Dei XII 24; Trin. III 8, 13; cf. already Iren. I 22, 1; II 2, 4; IV 20, 1). Even the WTS didn't claim this either. Nowhere do we find angels involved in any type of creation. According to the Bible, angels are created beings, not co-creators with God. The psalmist wrote:
"Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts . . . Let them praise the Lord for He commanded and they were created" (Psalm 148:2,5)
RE: "The Scriptures do not say so, since angels did not 'exist' in the beginning, but were created in the beginning. Angels were not 'present' at the creation of the world, since they were also created 'in the beginning', and especially they did not participate in the creation at all. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, was present at creation, see Genesis 1:2 (cf. Job 33:4, Psalm104:30), which the NWT also mistranslates."
DeleteI am not with the JWs and rarely use their NWT. Nevertheless, I do believe that the Bible does indeed indicate that the "sons of God" (Job 38:4-7) were already in existence in the beginning of the world of mankind spoken of in Genesis 1 and John 1:1,10, and as "beginning" spoken of in Matthew 19:4; Matthew 24:21; Mark 10:6; 13:19; John 1:1,10; Hebrews 1:10; 2 Peter 3:4. This is obviously referring to Genesis 1:27 as being in the beginning of the world of mankind that is spoken of in Genesis 1:1; John 1:1,10; 17:5. This "beginning" covers all six days of creation, as spoken of in Genesis 1.
See our studies on The Bible and Creation
The Bible does not speak of "the beginning of time," although some translations may make it appear so.
DeleteThe beginning of the skies and the land and all therein spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2 covers all six days of creation, as can be seen by what is stated in Exodus 20:11; 31:17.
ELOHIM in Genesis 1:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,16,17,18,20,21,22,24,25,26,27,28,29 and 31 is indeed used as a plural intensive, or pluralis majestatis. However, "plural of majesty" is often defined as a "royal plural" which is misleading. Elohim can be used a plural of majesty, or majestic plural, showing something to be of great might, grand or greater than normal, without having the meaning of "royalty". Thus, many use the term "plural intensive". A "plural intensive" when a plural word is used as singular to intensify the meaning. The basic meaning of EL is might, power or strength. ELOHIM as a plural intensive intensifies that meaning to some like a superior might or Supreme Might.
See links to studies related to ELOHIM.
No, I do not believe that Genesis 1:26 is referring to the angels. The one person who is ELOHIM in Genesis 1:26, however, is definitely speaking to someone else who is not Himself. I do not know that there is any scripture that speaks of the angels being involved in the creation of the world of mankind, although it is possible. However, I never said anything about the angels being involved in the creation of the world of mankind. I do believe that the angels were present at the creation of the world of mankind. See links to some of my studies related to Genesis 1:26.
DeleteLater in theology, through the Arian controversy, there happened a clear technical division between "creation" (κτίζω) and "begetting" (γεννάω). However, Septuagint translators did not yet have this terminologically tense agenda and thus put the verb in a looser sense of "making somebody something" or "bringing forth", not at all investing this term with a necessity of a contingency and createdness,i.e. non-eternity, of a being that God has brought about (ἔκτισεν).
ReplyDeleteIt's meant as a type (see typology), could be applied to him. First of all, Proverbs is a wisdom book, that's how it shall be interpreted. The Hebrew Bible, from which the Book of Proverbs comes, does not include the concept of God the Father begetting God the Son, as this is a concept from Christian theology, which was developed later.
Arius' view was summarized in their phrase "there was a time when the Son was not." As you've noted, they interpreted Proverbs 8:22, and specifically the verb ἔκτισέ με in the Greek translation (Septuagint), to support this view. Orthodox Christianity, on the other hand, rejected this interpretation and maintained that the Son is of the same substance as the Father and is co-eternal with the Father.
It should be highlighted the complexity of Greek and Hebrew words that are often translated into English as "created." In the original languages of the Bible, these words often carried a range of meanings, and their interpretation can greatly influence one's understanding of the nature of Jesus.
Even Jewish translators (Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus) preferred to translate the verb in Proverbs 8:22 as ἐκτήσατο, meaning "acquired" or "possessed." In the Book of Proverbs, the Hebrew verb 'qanah' (קָנָה) is often translated as 'get', 'acquire', or 'gain' in many English translations, in the Book of Proverbs in all instances, 'qanah' denotes the act of obtaining or acquiring wisdom or knowledge.
I will only say that we do not actually know for a certainty that Arius actually "chose the translation ‘create", as the author quoted states. We do not have Arius' original writings and almost all we one can assume of Arius is what trinitarian authors have claimed, and/or presented.
DeleteNeither Jesus nor the apostles identified the Wisdom in Proverbs 8 with the Son by letter. Moreover, Proverbs 8 is nowhere cited in the New Testament. This is a typology that occurs frequently in the New Testament. If you were to take the countless statements about the "Wisdom" in the Old Testament and apply them all to Jesus, you would probably come up with quite absurd conclusions.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek-speaking ancient Christians also didn't have problem with the Proverbs 8:22, since ἔκτισε of the LXX still not the same as ποιηθέντα, which was the term condemned by the Nicene Creed. Pope Dionysius explained that ἔκτισε has many shades and meanings in the Greek language, does not mean what Arianism asserts. None of the Ante-Nicene Christians interpreted Proverbs 8:22 as the Arians did, or the JWs do today, as a proof that the Logos is a created being. How then? You can read it from Dionysius' epistle Against The Sabellians from 262:
* https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0713.htm
Secondly, the Wisdom of Proverb 8:22 is not the Logos himself, it does not identify and equate with the Logos per se, but a literary form allegory applied, attributed to the Logos according to the rules of typology, and not to identify (equate) the two, so this could not be used to support a doctrine anyway. Proverbs 7:4–5 indicates clearly that the writer of Proverbs intended Wisdom to be presented as a woman. So the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 is nothing more than the poetically personified, gradual realization and manifestation of eternally existing, divine, uncreated wisdom in the created world, starting from the embryonic state of chaos up to the crown of the completed world, the son of man.
Check this too: https://www.academia.edu/29454891/Parys_Trinitarian_Exegesis_and_Theology_Prov_8_22_according_to_the_Cappadocian_Fathers_an_English_translation_from_the_French
I maintain that Proverbs 8 is not literally the Son, but a personification in a characteristic style of Old Testament Jewish wisdom literature. As a type, the Son can be used, but this is not an identification, but a typology. It cannot be used to support doctrine, especially since the terminology of the text does not strive for doctrinal precision at all, but praises wisdom in a characteristic style.
Do you believe that Christ is a woman who cries in the streets? (Proverbs 1:20,21) Was there a time when God had no wisdom? No. Wisdom is eternal as God. Messianic references in the Old Testament are either completely clear (e.g. Isaiah 53), or even if they are not completely clear, the New Testament clearly refers them to Christ (e.g. in Acts 2 in Peter's speech, etc.). However, nowhere in the New Testament did anyone apply Proverbs 8 to Jesus, nor does Solomon suggest that we should see more in the chapter than the description of wisdom. That is why, although the identification with Jesus seems like a nice parallel, it definitely lacks a strict biblical basis.
RE: "Neither Jesus nor the apostles identified the Wisdom in Proverbs 8 with the Son by letter. Moreover, Proverbs 8 is nowhere cited in the New Testament. This is a typology that occurs frequently in the New Testament."
DeleteWhile there is no direct identification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 as being the Messiah in the New Testament, there are some New Testament scriptures applied to Jesus that may be seen to be parallel what is stated in Proverbs 8:22-31. (John 1:1-3,10; 17:5,24; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:10) Nevertheless, since there is no direct scripture in the NT that applies Proverbs 8:22-31 to Jesus, we should certainly not be dogmatic about such an application.
If Proverbs 8:22-31 does not apply to Jesus, then it definitely does not offer proof that Jesus was in existence in eternity past as many trinitarians have asserted.
RE: << If you were to take the countless statements about the "Wisdom" in the Old Testament and apply them all to Jesus,>>
Obviously, if wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 does apply to Jesus, it is only in these verses that it would so applied. As far as I can tell, even trinitarians limit the application of Wisdom to Jesus to these verses.
RE: <>
While I certainly do not apply Proverbs 1:20,21 to Christ, there is no mention of a "woman" in these verses. Every noun in ancient Hebrew is either feminine or masculine. There is no neuter form for any noun in ancient Hebrew, so literally, there is no "it" in ancient Hebrew. Everything, if rendered literally into English, would be either she, her, he, his, etc., but never as an "it".
In Genesis 1:4, for instance, the Hebrew word for "light" is feminine, which, if given a literal application of femininity in English, would make it read: "And God saw the light that she was good; and God divided between the light and the darkness." However, I do not know of any translation that actually reflects the Hebrew femininity of light in their translation, but rather than presenting light as a "she", they present light with "it": "And God saw the light that it was good; and God divided between the light and the darkness." There is no neuter pronoun for "it" anywhere in the Hebrew Bible, but English translators supply "it" when in English, although the noun has to be either masculine or feminine in the Hebrew.
Similarly, in Genesis 1:28, the word for "earth' in Hebrew is feminine, but translators do not supply the corresponding pronoun as "her", but rather as "it".
This is done possibly thousands of times by translators throughout the Old Testament where the noun is either masculine or feminine in Hebrew, but in English the noun is referred as "it".
In Proverbs, however, translators disregard that in English wisdom is an "it" rather than "she", and supply the pronouns "she" or "her" instead of it when related to Wisdom. In the Hebrew, however, wisdom is not being presented as being a woman, although obviously wisdom is being figuratively personified. I assume that it is because of the personification of wisdom in Proverbs that translators supply "she" and "her" instead of "it" in that book.
Philo of Alexandria used Prov 8:22–23 in 'De ebrietate' 31 in the wording different from that in the Septuagint:
ReplyDelete‘God _acquired_ me as the first of all of his works, and before the age he founded me’ (ὁ θεὸς _ἐκτήσατό_ με πρωτίστην τῶν ἑαυτοῦ ἔργων, καὶ πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐθεμελίωσέ με).
Hence the translation of 'qanah' as 'ktáomai' was a well-known and established Jewish reading, since ALL Jewish translators and interpreters after the LXX (Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotion) rendered it this way. And Jerome did not invent it himself, but while learning Hebrew from the Jews in Bethlehem took this reading from them, which was unknown before among the Greek and Latin speaking Christians, who had to defend the Nicene "begotten, not made" principle of the Son based on translation using the verb "ktizo" from the LXX.
"Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, 'I have gotten [qanah] a man child with the help of the LORD.' (Genesis 4:1)
It doesn't suggest that Eve 'created’ anything. No, rather, it says that she had received, gotten, or acquired a child with the [help of the LORD]. Thus saying, it was through the LORD which she had acquired a child.
I am assuming that the person who commented above believes in the trinity doctrine. Please note that our study above is related to responding to claims of trinitarians that Proverbs 8:22,23 in some way proves that Jesus is what trinitarians often refer to as "eternal", which to them usually means having no beginning.
DeleteRegarding the LXX: We do not have any complete manuscripts often attributed to being the Septuagint before the 4th century AD. All we have a are a few fragments, often attributed to being from the earlier Jewish LXX. What is often quoted from today as being the LXX are the Christianized revised manuscripts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
At any rate, I do not put much faith in the LXX; I believe it to be the work of apostatized Christians:
https://ransomforall.blogspot.com/2023/05/lxx.html
Qanah (Strong's Hebrew #7069) can mean different things according to application. It can be used as a synonym for bara (Strong's Hebrew #1254) or yâlad (Strong's Hebrew #3025), both of which can indicate creation.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1254.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7069.htm
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3025.htm
I cannot say definitely that it is being used in Proverbs 8:22 in the sense of created, but I do believe that is what is meant. Regardless how it is rendered into English, it certainly would not offer any proof that Jesus as being Wisdom personified, was in existence for an eternity past, as many trinitarians assert regarding Proverbs 8:22,23.
Regarding Genesis 4:1, there is definitely no reason to believe that Cain, the male child, was never brought forth into existence. The Greek word ganah in Geneis 4:1 is certainly used in connection with Cain's being brought forth as a male child. Genesis 4:1 certainly does not suggest that Cain was never created, or brought into existence. And, yes, through the procreative law of reproduction that God placed upon man, God provided Eve with the male child, Cain.
"But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought [qanah] and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter." (2 Samuel 12:3).
ReplyDeleteIf 'qanah' = 'create,' then did the poor man "create" his little lamb? The poor man did not "create" the little lamb, rather he owned it. So overall the verb 'qanah' used in reference of 'creating.' It is always used in terms of receiving, getting, acquiring, possessing. Words translated from the Hebrew term 'qanah' are words such as, acquire, acquired, acquires, bought, buy, buyer, buying, buys, formed, gain acquisition, gained, get, gets, gotten, owner, possessed, possessor, purchased, purchaser, recover, redeemed, sold, and surely buy.
"Submit yourselves to every ordinance ['ktisis'] of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;..." (1 Peter 2:13).
In addition, the verb "created" also has a meaning that is not used much in English, but was fully used back then, and this is referring it not to the actual existence, but to to appoint to a position, place. For example, some church writer quoted Revelation 1:6 by heart, saying "creavit" instead of "fecit" (made, ie. here: appoint), thus "has also CREATED us kings and priests", this also shows what the verbs "to create" meant for the ancients.
In modern English, this use of the verb "create" is very rare, but surely known. The English word 'create' can also potentially mean 'ordain,' though its more familiar use is to bring into existence: "create...To originate or cause; to bring into being; to cause to exist; to make or form, by investing with a new character; to constitute; to appoint ( to create a peer)..." (Webster's International, 1965). Also used when the Pope "creates" cardinals. So I can still say that yes, let's say for the sake of theory that he "created", but the word "created" here actually does not mean "ex nihilo bringing into existence", but "set up", "appointed", "installed".
Regarding the meaning of "Qanah" in Proverbs 8:22, the NET Bible has a footnote which states:
Delete“There are two roots in Hebrew, one meaning ‘to possess,’ and the other meaning ‘to create.’ The older translations did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Genesis 4:1; 14:19; Deuteronomy 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation ‘possess’ because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation ‘create.’ Athanasius translated it, ‘constituted me as the head of creation.’ The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of ‘to acquire’; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning ‘create.’ Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (‘appointed,’ ‘given birth’) argue for the translation of ‘create’ or ‘establish’ (R. N. Whybray, ‘Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,’VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, ‘Where Will Wisdom Be Found?’ JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).”
Strong's defines Qanah:
a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7069/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Qanah can mean "create", or it can mean "possess", "acquire", etc.
Jehovah has certainly "possessed" his personal wisdom from eternity past. However, "Wisdom" as used in the verses discussed appears to not be referring Jehovah's internal "wisdom" which God has always had from eternity past, but rather of a wisdom that was "brought forth" (Strong's #2342) at a time before the depths of the earth existed. (Proverbs 8:24) It should be apparent that the Hebrew word for "brought forth" in this verse is being used in the sense of giving birth, as in child birth, and that in a time "before" there were 'depths', evidently referring the primeval oceans upon our planet earth. And he was brought forth before the 'springs" (Strong's #4599), again referring the water upon our planet earth. Proverbs 8:25,26 goes on to state that his being brought forth was before the mountains and hills, before God had made the earth [land], fields, and the dust of the world. The description corresponds with the "beginning' in Genesis 1:1; Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17 show that this "beginning" refers to the six days of the creation of the skies and land as pertaining to our planet as described in Genesis 1:3-2:1.
If Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 is referring to Jesus, the context supports that this Wisdom was brought forth before the "beginning" spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. This "beginning" does not refer to the beginning of the "sons of God" in the invisible realm (Job 38:4-7), nor does it even refer to the beginning of the physical universe, but rather it is pertaining to the land and skies and all in them upon the planet earth.
For links to some of my studies related to creation see my resource page related to:
God's Creation Through Jesus