Sunday, October 29, 2023

Unpacking John 5:18 (response -- editing)


One has posted a series of assertions made on Facebook related to John 5:18. The thread is no longer available, but we are endeavoring to preserve at least some relevant points in this posting. We suggest that one study what we have presented in our study: The Jewish Leaders' "Cause" to Kill Jesus.

One claimed John did not say that it was the Jews who were claiming that Jesus was equal with God, but rather that they only took issue with Jesus calling God his father. This would seem to seek to separate "called God his Father" from "making himself equal to God." It appears to be saying that the Jews objected to Jesus' referring to God as his father, but did not equate this with being equal to God, but that rather it is John himself (not the Jews), who supplies the information that it is making himself equal with God, and that "the idea that it was just their [the Jews'] opinion is merely an assumption not found in the text."

John 10:33

Did John say that the reason that the Jews gave for killing Jesus is accurate and that Jesus' reason as given in John 10:32 is incorrect? Actually, the ending phrase gives the reason -- from the perspective of their argument -- as to why the Jews were objecting to Jesus' referring to his God as his Father. In view of the Jews' claim recorded in John 10:33, wherein they stated that Jesus was a man making himself out to be God (or a god), the default reasoning is that John was simply defining the Jewish "cause" to kill Jesus in John 5:18. Indeed, it really doesn't make sense to say that they were only objecting to Jesus referring to God as his Father, without there being some reason for such objection based on Jewish law, and such a reason would have to be such that it would offer a "cause" for killing Jesus.

Of course, the Jewish leaders could have been speaking of "god" in a more general way as the angels are referred to as "gods" (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), or similar to the way the sons of the Most High are "gods". (Psalm 82:6) Jesus, by claiming to have come down from heaven from God was indeed claiming to have been such a god -- a mighty spirit being -- before he became flesh with a glory a little lower than the angels. (John 1:14; Hebrews 2:9) John wrote of this in John 1:1, where John spoke Jesus as "the Word" before being made flesh. John used the Greek for "God/god" of Jesus, but obviously not with the meaning of being the "one God" from whom are all. (1 Corinthians 8:6) If this is what is meant in John 5:18, then the final statement is partly true, for Jesus was such a divine being before he became flesh, but it was not true at the time the Jews were making their accusation because Jesus did not have that divine glory while he was in the days of his flesh. -- John 17:5; Hebrews 5:7.
See also our study: 
Who Are the Gods?

Nevertheless, since Jesus is not Jehovah, the "one God" from whom are all (1 Corinthians 8:6), Jesus' calling his God his Father would not make him equal to exclusive glory of as a divine being, nor equal to the Supreme Being, as possessing the glory of being "one God" from whom are all. This is indeed but an assumption being made by the Jewish leaders, for Jehovah is called "our Father" in 1 Chronicles 29:10; Isaiah 63:16; 64:8, without any thought that this makes the people of Israel equal to Jehovah.

Jehovah Himself confirms his being a Father to Israel as recorded in Jeremiah 3:19; 31:9.
Likewise, Jesus instructed his followers to refer to God as "our Father" (Matthew 6:9) and many times referred to his God as being the Father of his disciples (Matthew 5:16,45; 6:1,4,6,8,15,18; 7:11; 10:20,29; 18:4; John 20:17, etc). Paul spoke of God as "our Father" (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; Philippians 1:2; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Philemon 1:3) without any thought that such makes one equal to God.

Jesus, however, was just not a son of God, he was "the" Son of God, the only one who was begotten directly from God, being the firstborn (first to be brought forth) of God. (Colossians 1:15) Whether the Jews understood this or not, the Bible does not say, but Jesus' parable indicates the Jews did know he was the heir sent from God but did not want to accept him as such. -- Matthew 21:38.

For more regarding Jesus as the firstborn creature, see:
Studies Related to Jesus as Firstborn

It appears that the author of OP on Facebook was denying that John, by his statement recorded in John 5:18, was reporting any reason of the Jews for killing Jesus, but that they were simply "balking at what Jesus was saying". If this is the thought that was presented by the author, we have no reason to imagine and assume such. Indeed, we are not sure how one could read John 5:18 and come to such a conclusion, for it is plainly stated: "for this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because ..., but also". John does indeed record two different legal causes that the Jews were claiming for killing Jesus. 

The author of the OP on Facebook claimed that John calls Jesus "God" throughout his gospel, evidently by "God" meaning the Supreme Being, and a list of scriptures is given where, evidently, it is alleged that John calls Jesus "God", although when we look at those scriptures, we do not find what is being claimed: John 1:1; 1:18; 5:18; 5:23; 8:58; 9:38; 10:33, 36; 12:41 and 20:28. Other scriptures are given for comparison: Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:8; Philippians 2:6; Colossians 1:19; 2:9.

We do not believe that John ever intended anything he wrote to mean that he was saying that Jesus is the Supreme Being. While I do not believe that in all of these scriptures presented that Jesus is being referred to as a god, a mighty one, in Hebraic usage, the Hebrew/Greek words that are often translated as "God/god" can be used of others than the Supreme Being of false gods in a general sense of might, strength, power, etc.
**** Below needs to be edited

John 1:1
In John 1:1, John was definitely not saying that Jesus was the only true God (Supreme Being) whom he had been with (John 17:1,3,5), thus we should recognize a more general usage of the word. In John 1:1, we find that forms of the Greek word often transliterated as THEOS is being used. Forms of THEOS in the New Testament simply correspond to forms of the word often transliterated as "EL" (including "elohim) in the Old Testament, and may thus be used with the same Hebraic usage as in the Old Testament. As John 1:1 reads in most translations, it would actually appear being saying that in the beginning there two Gods, two Supreme Beings, one Supreme Being who is with another Supreme Being. So the trinitarian creates many assumptions which are read into what is stated to as to make it say what it does not say, that is, that there are two different persons of the same one God being spoken of by John.

What many do not realize is that there is a scriptural Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God/god" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Most translations of the Bible into English as well as other languages recognize this usage. We can use the most popular English translation -- the King James Version -- to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for God/god (forms of EL, including ELOHIM, in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (great); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god", or Supreme Being, in many of these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as false god.
Nevertheless, in John 1:1, we do find that the Greek word often transliterated as "THEOS" is applied to Jesus before he became flesh -- John is speaking of what he "was" before he became flesh. Since Jesus shows by his words in John 17:1,3,5 that he had been with the only true God before the world of mankind had been made, rather than imagining that John was saying that Jesus was only true God, the default reasoning regarding John 1:1 should be to apply the general Hebraic usage as shown above. Applying Hebraic usage, and to make it better understood in English, the final phrase of John 1:1 would better be rendered “the Logos was mighty,” in accordance with such similar usage as given by the King James Version in Genesis 23:6; 30:8; 31:29; Deuteronomy 28:32; 1 Samuel 14:15; Job 41:25; Psalm 33:16; 36:6; 50:1; 82:1; 89:6; Proverbs 3:27; Ezekiel 32:21, Jonah 3:3; Micah 2:1, wherein the Hebrews words for “God” are not rendered either “God” or “god”, but rather as “exceeding,” “might,” “mighty,” “great,” “power,” or “strong.” Thus, if we render the word THEOS as the KJV renders "EL" in Psalm 82:1 (mighty), we would have "the word was mighty", and all makes perfect sense without adding all of the imaginative assumptions that would have to accompany viewing the scripture through the tint of the trinity doctrine, or the oneness doctrine. Jesus was indeed a mighty one with the only true MIGHT -- the only source of all might -- before the world of mankind was made. The word THEOS as used in John 1:1, refers to Jesus' mighty spirit being before he became flesh. As we can see from John 17:5, during the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), Jesus did not have the glory of being a heavenly, celestial, mighty spirit being (1 Corinthians 15:39-41), for he was a human being, a little lower than the angels. -- Hebrews 2:9.
For more related to the Hebraic usage of the words for "God/god", see my study:
The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
For more related to John 1:1, see my studies:
John 1:1 Resources
*** Below needs to be edited; links may not work.
I  will not here go through all the scriptures listed in the OP, but I will provide links to where I have discussed the scriptures presented:
John 1:18 (variant readings in manuscripts)
Did Jesus Have a Beginning?
Only Begotten Theos
John 5:18 (THEOS is not applied to Jesus, but rather to the God of Jesus)
The Jewish Leaders' Cause to Kill Jesus
John 5:23 (No form of THEOS is applied to Jesus in this verse)
Honor the Son As the Father
The Honor Due Jesus
John 8:58 (No form of THEOS is applied to Jesus in this verse)
"I am" Resource Page
John 9:38 (No form of THEOS is applied to Jesus in this verse)
Jesus Received Worship
John 10:33 (The Jews do apply THEOS to Jesus in their accusation)
The Oneness of Jehovah and Jesus
In What Sense are Jesus and the Father One?
The Real Reason the Jews Sought to Kill Jesus
John 10:36 (THEOS is applied only to the God of Jesus, not to Jesus)
John 12:41 (No form of THEOS appears in this verse)
Isaiah Saw His Glory
John 20:28 (The Greek structure may have been used to denote two persons)
My Lord and My God
http://jesus-rlbible.com/?p=339
Thus, seen, we can see that John himself definitely only used the word THEOS in his Gospel once of Jesus, and that is in John 1:1. Due to variant readings, he may or may not have used THEOS of Jesus in John 1:18. It is possible that in John 20:28, John quotes Thomas as applying the word THEOS to Jesus, and John does quote the Jewish leaders as applying the word to Jesus in John 10:33. Nevertheless, in the very, very few instances where the Bible does indeed apply the word THEOS to Jesus, it can be seen in to be in the general sense of might, strength, power, not as being the Supreme Being.
Other Scriptures Given:
Romans 9:5 (THEOS in this verse probably refers to the God of Jesus, not to Jesus)
Who Is Over All
Titus 2:13 (THEOS in this verse probably refers to the God of Jesus, not to Jesus)
The Great God
2 Peter 1:1 (Variant readings)
Our God and Savior
Hebrews 1:8 (THEOS may or may be applied to Jesus in this verse; Hebrews 1:9, however, shows that if it is applied to Jesus is verse 8, it is not in the sense of Supreme Being.)
Why is Jesus Called ELOHIM and THEOS
What Does Hebrew 1 Say About "God"?
Philippians 2:6 (THEOS in this verse is directly applied to the God of Jesus, not to Jesus)
Did Paul Say That Jesus is God?
Morphe
The Unipersonal God Exalted Jesus
Humility of Mind
Colossians 2:9 - A form of THEOS is found here, applied to Jesus regarding the abundance of bodily might given to him. Jesus' deity in this verse does not identify Jesus as being his God, Jehovah, in whose strength Jesus stands. -- Micah 5:4.
The Fullness of Deity
Regarding Section 4, it is claimed that the Jews' accusation, "you, being a man, make yourself God" shows that they understood what Jesus said when he that he was the "Son of God". In reality, in John 10:30-36, we find that Jesus refuted the claims of the Jewish leaders by pointing out that the sons of the Most High -- to whom the Logos came --  are "gods" (mighty ones). (John 10:34,35) He certainly was not saying that the sons of the Most High are Supreme Beings, but he did acknowledge the Hebraic usage discussed earlier, and thus showed that his being the Son of God does not mean that he is the Supreme Being. Jesus, however, had already shown to them the real reason that they wished to kill him, which the Jews denied (they lied).
In Section 5, it is claimed that if God is your father, then you are unique and of the "Godkind", evidently, with the meaning of being supreme in their being. This appears to be same line of logic that says God begets God, which would, in effect, mean that the Supreme Being begets Supreme Being. This would also mean that all who are regenerated and become sons of God would become supreme in their being. There is nothing, however, anywhere in the Bible that says that if the Supreme Being begets a son, that son has to be the Supreme Being. This is man's reasoning, which has to be imagined beyond what is written, and actually places the Supreme Being as though he were under the reproduction laws which God has placed upon his earthly living creation. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,22,28) It is possible that the Jewish leadership was using such reasoning, but that does not mean that such reasoning is true.
God Begets God?
In section 6, it is claimed that the statement (evidently of Section 5) is consistent with Jesus' other claims, such as his "pre-existence", heavenly origin, sinlessness and moral perfection, and pointing to himself as the way, the truth and the life. Added to this, is the fact that he forgave sins and received worship.
In reality, nothing in any of this means that Jesus is the Supreme Being; one has to reason such beyond what is written by placing a lot of assumptions upon the scriptures. All the related scriptures are fully in harmony with each other without adding to them that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Jesus' Prehuman Existence:
Jesus' Prehuman Existence
Regarding John 14:6: Jesus did not make claim to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; he did claim to be the "way" to the only true God. -- John 17:1,3.
Jesus is the "Way" in that only through his sacrifice, the "ransom," imputing his merit to sinners, could any of us be made acceptable to the Father or be received back again into fellowship with him. He is the "Truth" in the sense that only through his words, his instructions, his guidance, could there be any hope of coming into harmony with the Spirit of God, the Spirit of truth. His words, however, are not actually "his" words, for they are the words of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who had sent him. (Exodus 3:13,14; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 3:34; 5:19; 6:29; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,42; 10:36; 12:44-50; 14:10,24; 17:1,3,8; Acts 3:13-26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 John 4:9,10) He is the "Life" in that in Adam all the race was dead, under divine sentence – had forfeited the rights of life – and none could come again into life conditions except through him, through the life which he gave for ours. Jesus was not born into this world under this condemnation, thus in him was life, a human life that could be sacrificed to purchase back what Adam had lost. Thus, Jesus is our Ransom or Way; our Teacher or Instructor in righteousness, in the truth, and our Life-giver – "Neither is there salvation in any other." "No man cometh unto the Father but by me" – no man need hope for any place in any of the mansions of the Father's house by any other way, by any other truth, by any other life. – Acts 4:12; John 14:6.
Nothing in any of this, however, means that we need to imagine and assume that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or that Jesus is a person of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I will now present the scriptures given; if I have already addressed these scriptures elsewhere, I may simply give link(s) to that discussion.
John 8:42 (also John 16:27,28) - "God" in this verse refers to only one person, not three persons. Jesus does not say that he is "God", but rather that he came from God. Jesus proceeded forth and came from God. But Jesus is not God; he is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15) He stated that he is inferior (John 10:29; 14:28); he worshiped God; he prayed to God (John 11:41, 42; 17:1-26); he submitted to God; he called upon God for help with things he could not do himself; he accepted God’s will as his own; he affirmed that God heard his prayers; and unlike God, who must by definition be perfect in every way, Jesus was made complete as a high priest through sufferings, and learned deeper levels of obedience by the things which he suffered (Hebrews 2:10; 5:8,9). Jesus of Nazareth was just what the scriptures style him: the Only-Begotten, the Son of the Highest, the First-Born of every creature. — John 1:18; Luke 1:32; Revelation 3:14.
John 8:29 - It was the Lord Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 who sent Jesus.
Is Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
John 8:45,56
Only God is Sinless?
John 8:47 - The words Jesus spoke were not his own, but were those of his God who had sent him. — Exodus 3:13,14; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 3:34; 5:19; 6:29; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,42; 10:36; 12:44-50; 14:10,24; 17:1,3,8; Acts 3:13-26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 John 4:9,10.
John 14:6 - discussed earlier.
There is nothing in any of the scriptures given that present Jesus as being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; there is definitely nothing in any of the scriptures that present the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being more than one person.
John 5:22
In Section 7, we are told that Jesus is presented as being "the supreme judge" (John 5:22). Evidently, this is being used in the sense of being the Supreme Judge of the entire universe. Yet, in John 5:22, we find that the only true God (John 17:3) is giving all judgment to His Son. The Supreme Judge of the universe is such inherently, and does not need anyone to give to Him authority to judge. Rather than presenting Jesus as the Supreme judge, then, John 5:22 shows that Jesus is NOT the Supreme judge, but that Jesus receives the authority to judge from the only true God. In verse 27 we read "He [the only true God] gave Him [Jesus] authority to execute judgment." Therefore, Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, comes to judge through — by means of — His son. — Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Isaiah 40:10; 62:11; Luke 1:32,35; John 5:22,23; Acts 10:42; 17:31; Romans 2:16; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 22:12.
It is claimed that Jesus is to be "honored as supremely as the Father" (John 5:23) The implication of the statement appears to be that we should honor the Son as being as Supreme as the Father. In that Jesus does not do anything of his own initiative and that his judgment is always in harmony with the will of his God (John 8:30), we should indeed honor him just as we would honor his God and Father. (Micah 5:4; Ephesians 1:3) There is nothing at all in John 5:23 that says that we should honor Jesus as being the Supreme Being.
Honor the Son As the Father
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