Monday, May 31, 2010

Isaiah 9:6 and The Deity of Jesus

This is a continuation from our response to one who has sent us messages on youtube.

Having received another message from this person, we are responding here to that message.

Our trinitarian neighbor claims to have "looked" at all our links and fails to see how any of the info disproves the deity of Christ and "whom he is."

We have no desire to disprove the deity of Christ, as we believe in the deity, the mightiness, of Christ, as that is shown in the Bible by usage of the Hebrew/Greek words for deity.

Isaiah 9:6 and the Alleged Trinity

Was Jesus Divine as a Human?

We certainly have no desire to disprove who Jesus is and who he claimed to be. Indeed, we do our uptmost to defend who Jesus is according to the scriptures, but in doing so we also see that we need to expose the false claims that are made of the Anointed of Yahweh.

However, we highly doubt that in taking a 'look' at the links would afford one the effort needed to thoroughly examine material presented on the links, not unless such a person has extraordinary speed reading and comprehension capabilities; a diligent examining of all the scriptures presented has to take a lot of time. (Acts 17:2) One has to diligently seek the wisdom as one might seek after silver, or a hidden treasure. (Proverbs 2:1-5) This is especially true now that the truth has been corrupted with the deceptions of foretold apostasy. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) Additionally, one has to be willing to accept what God's spirit reveals in the scriptures, without having a desire to use to the spirit of human imagination so as to bend what is stated to conform the preconcieved dogma that has to be added to scripture. Diligent prayer is thus also required. The short time in which you have responded would hardly give one time to examine the links in depth. For most people, at least a week or even several weeks would probably be needed to do a thorough examination, actually absorbing what is being said while examining scriptures to see if what is said is true. One has to also to be willing "meditate" on the Word, submitting to what God, through His holy spirit, has revealed in the scriptures regardless of how much might contradict preconceived thoughts, in order to understand. -- Psalm 119:148; 2 Timothy 2:15.

Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)

On the other hand, if you just "look" at what has been written through tainted spectacles of added-on trinitarian dogma, you will indeed continue to be blinded to the truth on this. The tainted trintarian spectacles blinds one to what the scriptures are saying, since it would read "trinity" into many scriptures whereas in reality nothing is stated about a triune god at all in those verses. God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. — Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10.

Part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a "falling away" from the truth of God’s Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching "another Jesus"; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great "Man of Sin", or more correctly  "Insubordinate Man," "Lawless Man", or "Illegal Man", a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God’s Word since their revelation was allegedly of God’s Spirit, and these revelations were claimed, in effect, to add more to the faith that scriptures say had once delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted by means of the spirit of human imagination and assumptions so as to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament.
Understanding Kingdom Mysteries

General Comments About Jesus and His God

And yet, many, even though they have access to the holy spirit as sons of God, remain as babes in Christ (1 Corinthians 3:1) since they are still to a large extent carnal in their thinking abilities. This can be true whether one believes or does not believe in the added-on trinitarian dogma, but that added-on dogma is probably one of the greatest hinderances that Satan has put forth to keep God's people from appreciating the deeper truths of the Bible, such as the "ransom for all."

The Ransom for All
A Tree Planted by Rivers of Waters

Indeed, unless God wishes one to understand, or to state it better, if God does not wish one to have an appreciable understanding, then there is nothing we can do to help that person understand until God would allow that person to so understand, except to try to lead such a person into condition wherein God would make him receptive. Thus, the truth is, to a large extent, still a mystery to those Christians who have not developed in the knowledge of the truth.
Understanding Kingdom Mysteries

Nor is it necessary for us to try to "disprove" the trinity doctrine. None of the Bible writers wrote in such a manner so as have any reason to say: "Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who appeared to Moses," or to say: "There is no trinity doctrine, such is a false teaching." And even if they had said such a thing, trinitarians who tenaciously wish to hold to that dogma could still find a way to use their spirit of human imagination so as to explain it away. If Paul had written, for example, "Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we are sure that they could imagine, assume and add to that statement something like: Paul was saying that Jesus was not the first person of the trinity; he was not denying that Jesus is the second person of the trinity, and thus it is as the second person of the trinity that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. And if Paul had written, there is no trinity, it could be interpreted to mean that Paul was only referring to the triads of heathen religion, not to the humanly exalted doctrine of man that has been added to, and read into, the Bible. We can and have shown that the trinity dogma is not found in the Bible, and we can and have shown that we have no reason to add such dogma to the scriptures, since the scriptures are totally in harmony without adding such an idea. Such a doctrine is nowhere expressed in the Bible; it does indeed have to imagined beyond what is actually written, assumptions have to formulated, and those assumptons have added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to alleged "clearly" prove what has been assumed.

We have also shown how adding such a doctrine into the Bible diminishes the only true God as well as the role Jesus had in his sacrifice for sin. We have also shown how adding such a doctrine into the Bible would justify sin in the flesh, rather do what Paul stated Jesus did, that is, Jesus condemned sinned in the flesh.
How God's Son Condemned Sin the Flesh

We have also shown how adding the trinitarian dogma that Jesus is still a man would directly deny the purpose for which Jesus had come in the flesh, that is, to sacrifice that flesh once for all time as an offering for sin.

Jesus Died a Human Being, Raised a Spirit Being

Raised in the Spirit

Is Jesus Still a Little Lower Than the Angels?

Trinitarian False Definition of a Christian

It is being claimed that all we have are other Bible verses which we do not understand and have clearly misrepresented. It is claimed that we are trying to "proof text" a theory with all those other verses as a means to turn Isaiah 9:6 into what we want it to be. Our trinitarian neighbor does not tell us how we have misrepresented the scriptures. We do agree that the Isaiah 9:6 is very specific in what it says, and the text is clear on whom the divine child's identity is.

Without knowing in what way our trinitarian correspondent believes we have misrepresented the other scriptures, we have not much to respond to. We suspect, however, that what is actually meant is that we do not join in with the trinitarian spirit of human imagination, so as to read those scriptures through the taint of trinitarian dogma, thereby adding trinitarian assumptions to, and reading those assumptions into, the scriptures.

Isaiah 9:6 is indeed very clear in what it says, although we believe most translations misrepresent what it says, since they would present the name, not as a "name", but as a series of "names." By this many authors and commentators on the Bible have referred to Isaiah 9:6 as being "names" of the Messiah, thereby changing the singular name to a plural "names." The scripture itself, however does indeed most clearly say 'name' -- not 'names.' Trinitarians, using the great spirit of human imagination, formulate assumptions, and then add to those assumptions to scriptures, so as read those assumptions into, what is stated in the translations. However, even with the common rendering Isaiah 9:6 in contradiction to what the verse says, that is, when what is stated as a singular name in verse is reinterpreted to mean a series names rather one singular name, there is still nothing at all in the verse about three persons in one God, or that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc. These thoughts still have to be imagined, assumptions formulated on what is imagined, and those assumptions have to be added to, and read into, what is stated.

Isaiah 9:6 does indeed "clearly" identify the son as given by Yahweh of Hosts of Isaiah 9:7. And yes, this does indeed agree with the entire rest of the Bible. Isaiah 9:6 does indeed clearly say "name", not names. And it is in harmony with the rest of the scriptures that the name by which he should be called would glorify his unipersonal God and Father. -- Ephesians 1:3,17; Philippians 2:11; 1 Peter 1:3.

And it still remains a fact that not once from Genesis to Revelation is the God spoken of in Exodus 3:14,15 presented as more than one person. He is consistently spoken of as one person. Additionally, not once is the one sent by this God identified as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The scriptures consistently distinguish between the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the one sent by Him.
Google search Restoration Light site for "Unipersonal God"
(some links may give comments by others, as in the RL forums; I do not necessarily agree with comments given by others.)

It is claimed that we have nothing to prove otherwise. Of course, it is not our desire to prove that Isaiah 9:6 says anything otherwise than what it does say..

On the other hand, we have indeed proved overwhelmingly that there is nothing in Isaiah 9:6 that identifies Jesus as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; there mostly definitely is nothing there about God existing as three persons. All such thoughts have come from the spirit of human imagination beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and those thoughts formulated into dogmatic assumptions, which assumptions then have to added to, and read into, what is written. We certainly have no desire to so misrepresent Isaiah 9:6 as supporting such ideas which are not there.

No Trinity in Isaiah 9:6

Father of Eternity

Isaiah 9:6 - Not a Series of Names

The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father

The Singular Name of the Son Given

Isaiah 9:6 and the Alleged Trinity

The Singular Name

The statement is made that there is only "one" God, and we are asked: "well then you have created two Gods now haven't you?" And then it is claimed that "EL" is always used for "GOD" and NEVER EVER refers to man.

In reality the Bible does indeed use the Hebrew EL not only of man, but also of angels and things. If our trinitarian correspondent had studied the material on links provided, he would have known this.

Yes, there is indeed only one true God; there is only one who is innately the Might of Univere, only one who is the Supreme Being. And the Bible directly tells who that one God is. Aside from him there is no might (EL), since he is the source of all might and power. (Psalm 62:11; Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5,21; Hosea 13:4; John 19:11; Romans 13:1) Jesus identified his unipersonal God and Father as that one true God. (John 10:29; 17:1,3) Jesus called upon his God, not as three persons, but as one person, his God and Father. When he said "My God", was he speaking of a triune "God?" (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Hebrews 5:7) Likewise, when the scripture speaks of the God of Jesus, are they speaking of one person, or three persons? "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus." -- Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

The God -- Supreme Being -- of Jesus

Nevertheless, Jesus is not the only true God, the Might of the Universe, the only who is that Might innately. John 17:3 should settle all dispute on that, but the trinitarian spirit of human imagination would not have it so. Having formed a god -- not with their literal hands -- but out of the human hands of their spirit of imagination, they seem to tenaciously continue to add more and more and more to the scriptures so as to justify their idol. There is indeed only one true God, one who possesses might innately, and indeed, who is the source of absolutely all might in the universe. The Bible does indeed, however, speak of others who are "god" - mighty ones - in a different sense, that of having received special might from the source of all might. Jesus is included as such.

That forms of the words EL and THEOS are used in an exclusive manner of the God and Father of Jesus as the only true God does not negate the usage of those words as applied in a sense that does not mean Supreme Being. And the Bible does indeed actually use those words in such a manner. Strong classifies forms of the Hebrew word "EL" under the numbers 410, 426, 430, although under each of these numbers there may actually be many other forms in the Hebrew scriptures than the generalization given.

At any rate, as we have shown several times on the websites, forms of EL, although most often used in the Bible to the designate the only Most High, are indeed used of men, angels as well as things. It is not we creating two "Gods", two Supreme Beings (the trinitarians have, in effect, created three Supreme Persons, three supreme sentient beings, each of which is claimed to have their own separate and distinct omniscience, but yet which are all the same omniscience). We can use the most popular English translation — the King James Version — to illustrate such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6  (mighty -- applied to a man); Genesis 30:8  (mighty -- applied to a man); Genesis 31:29  (power - applied to a man's strength -- power -- of hand); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might -- applied to the strength, power in the  hand of the children of Israel); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great - applied to the trembling); Nehemiah 5:5  (power -- referring to man's power); Psalm 8:5 (angels - see Hebrews 2:7); Psalm 36:6 (great -- of God's judgments); Psalm 82:1 (mighty - of the sons of the Most High, men -- Psalm 82:6); Proverbs 3:27  (power - in a man's hand); Psalm 29:1 (mighty -- probably applied to angels, although it could be applied to man); Ezekiel 32:21  (strong applied to men); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding -- applied to a city). If one were to substitute "false god" in these verses, we would have some absurd statements. Likewise, in many of the verses, one could not insert Supreme Being without some very odd results. Additionally, we find that forms of EL are applied to Pharoah (Exodus 7:1 -- rendered as "a god" in the KJV) and also to Aaron (Exodus 4:16). Furthermore, forms of EL are applied to the angels, as previously shown:  Psalm 8:5 {compare Hebrews 2:9; also Psalm 50:1 and 96:4 could be speaking of angels). Additionally, forms of EL are applied to the judges of Israel (as a body): Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28 (See Acts 23:5). And, a form of EL is applied to The wicked spirit that impersonated Samuel. (1 Samuel 28:13) A form of EL is applied to Moses in Exodus 7:1, where the KJV renders it as "a god." This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god", and they are used not only of the Supreme Being, but also of men, angels and things.

It is forms of EL that are translated into the Greek by forms of the word THEOS. Thus, Jesus speaks of the sons of the Most High of Psalm 82, where forms of el are used, which is rendered from the Koine Greek in most translations as "gods", from a plural form of the Greek THEOS, and thus Jesus applies this word to men, the sons of the Most High who had received the Logos (Jesus). -- John 1:12; 10:34,35.
Who Are the Gods?
Google Search of the Restoration Light Site for El Theos
(some links may contain material written by others, as in the forums; I do not necessarily agree with the comments or conclusions written by others)

Thus, in the very, very few instances where a form of EL or THEOS is actually applied to Jesus in the Bible, a close examination reveals that it is not being applied in the same sense as it is applied to the Most High, but rather in the general sense of mightiness, as in John 1:1, the Word was mighty (or, a mighty one).

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