Saturday, September 24, 2016

Hebrews 1:10-12- Does Jehovah Speak to Jehovah?

And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail." -- Hebrews 1:10-12

Our trinitarian neighbors and some others claim that in Hebrews 1:10-12, a scripture originally applied to Jehovah (Yahweh) is applied to Jesus. They tell us that it is Jehovah that is being spoken to by the Father in Hebrews 1:10-12, when the writer of Hebrews referenced Psalm 102:25-27. If in Psalm 102:25-27 it is indeed Jehovah who is being addressed, then who is it that is speaking to Jehovah? It would have to be the Psalmist himself. However, the writer of Hebrews indicates that it is the God of Israel who is speaking to the one being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27. Thus to say that is is Jehovah being spoken to in Psalm 102:25-27 would, in effect, make the Psalmist be playing the role of Jehovah as applied in this manner to Hebrews 1:10-12. In actuality, there is no reason to believe that the Psalmist was playing the role of the Father [who is Jehovah] speaking to the Son [supposedly, according to trinitarians, who is also Jehovah].

Paul in Hebrews plainly tells us that this is God [Jehovah, "God" of Hebrews 1:1,2], the Father of Jesus, speaking to Jesus, his Son. We should, therefore, view Psalm 102:25-27 from this perspective, else we would come to the conclusion that Paul was wrong in his reference.

Paul was not wrong when he said the Father (Jehovah, "God" in Hebrews 1:1,2) spoke to his Son when referencing Psalm 102:25-27. Jehovah [the Father] is not being spoken to at all in these verses, but just as the writer of Hebrews truthfully tells us, it is "God" of Hebrews 1:1,2 who speaks to his Son when he stated these matters.

If we read the Psalm closely, we can see that the Psalmist is prophetically playing the role of Messiah in verse 24: "I said, O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days." As David often did not speak of himself when using the first person, but prophetically of the Messiah (Psalm 16:8-10=Acts 2:25-30; Psalm 22:1=Matthew 27:46; Psalm22:22=Hebrews 2:11,12; Psalm 35:19=John 15:25; Psalm 40:6-8=Hebrews 10:5-10; Psalm 41:9=John 13:18, etc.), so the writer of Hebrews tells us that the Psalmist who wrote Psalm 102 was prophetic of the Messiah to whom Jehovah, the Father, spoke. From this we can also reasonably conclude that the author of Psalm 102 is also David. Thus Jesus fulfilled this role in his statement: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me; nevertheless, not what I want, but what you want." -- Matthew 26:39; See also John 12:27.

It should be borne in mind that punctuation is a modern invention, and thus the punctuation we see in our translations is not inspired. The Scriptures were previously without any punctuation. The punctuation as given in many translations is manifestly wrong in several places. Let us look at Psalm 102-24-27, applying punctuation in accordance to what Paul stated:

For he has looked down from the height of his sanctuary. From heaven, Jehovah saw the earth; To hear the groans of the prisoner; To free those who are condemned to death; That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; When the peoples are gathered together, The kingdoms, to serve Jehovah.

[Now Jesus is represented as speaking at the time of his death.] He weakened my strength along the course. He shortened my days. I said, "My God, don't take me away in the midst of my days. Your years are throughout all generations."

[Hear Jehovah's answer of assurance to that heart prayer:] "Of old, you laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will endure. Yes, all of them will wear out like a garment. You will change them like a cloak, and they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will have no end. The children of your servants will continue. Their seed will be established before you." -- Psalm 102:26-28.

Thus we have no reason to believe Paul is incorrect in his application of the scripture, and likewise this scripture does not provide any proof of the claim that Jesus is Jehovah.
It is being claimed that when Hebrews 1:10 says "Lord", that "Lord" in this verse means "Jehovah" (Yahweh). We have no reason to imagine, assume, add to, and read into Hebrews 1:10, that by the reference to Jehovah's addressing Jesus as "Lord", that the unipersonal Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 meant that Jesus is Jehovah. It was the "Lord Jehovah" of Isaiah 61:1 who anointed Jesus and made Jesus both Christ and "Lord". -- Psalm 2:2,6; 45:7; Ezekiel 34:23,24; John 10:29; Acts 2:23,36; 4:27; 10:36; Hebrews 1:9.

There is not a word for "lord" in Psalm 102, thus the writer of Hebrews 1:10 inserted this into the words that Jehovah spoke to the one anointed, as recorded in Psalm 102:25-28. Jehovah, of course, has no one as "lord" over Him, so if Jehovah were to speak of another as "lord", it would have to be in the sense that Jehovah has given to that one the power and authority as "lord", not that such would become Jehovah.

Is Jesus Being Designated as the Source of Creation?

In this scripture, Paul quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, and tells us that Jehovah is speaking here to his son. Does this scripture designate Jesus as "the" source Creator of the heavens and the earth? It does say that the "heavens" are the work of his hands, and that he was the one who laid the foundation of the earth. The question is what is meant by "heavens" here? What is meant by earth? Is it speaking of the entire universe?

Many fail to take into consideration the scriptures as a whole, and thus come up with the wrong conclusions concerning what is being said in this verse. We should rightly divide the Word of Truth, so as to make the proper applications as related to context as well as the rest of the scriptures. (2 Timothy 2:15) God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. (Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10) What we need to do, if we are to be harmony with what God's spirit has revealed, is look closely and compare spiritual revealing with spiritual revealing as given in the scriptures. -- 1 Corinthians 2:10,13.

In context, the heavens and earth being spoken of is said to pass away. Therefore, we can conclude that this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, and we can further conclude that it is not speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. -- Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5.

Hebrews 1:10: "And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands." We believe that this is referring to creation of the heavens and earth as described in Genesis 1:1, not of the planet, and certainly not the heavens where God resides. The present heavens and earth, which were created in the six days "beginning" of Genesis 1:1-31, will pass away, in effect, the will "changed" into the new heavens and earth. Peter speaks of this in a slightly different manner in 2 Peter 3, in that he speaks of three heavens and three earth, whereas Hebrews 1:10-12 combines the first two that Peter speaks of as one. 2 Peter 3:5,6 speaks of the heavens that were (past tense) and an earth, which had created by means of the word [Logos] of God. (John 1:1,3) This original creation was indeed created by means of the Logos, which had become corrupted because of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-19; 8:19-22) but we should note that there was a world (kosmos) of mankind that passed perished in the flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:6) Please note the six days of Genesis 1:1 - 2:1, in which God created the heavens and the earth (Exodus 20:11; 31:17), through the Logos (John 1:3,10), do not refer to the making of the actual planet earth, nor of the making of the heavens that is God's throne. (Psalm 1:11; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34; 23:22; Acts 7:49) We have presented elsewhere the scriptural proofs that John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are not speaking of the creation of the whole universe, or the physical planets, stars, earth, etc. Certainly, when Genesis 1:1 speaks of heavens, it not speaking of the heaven where God resides with his angels (2 Chronicles 28:6; Job 1:6; Matthew 18:10; 1 Timothy 6:16), and of which the scriptures speak of as His throne. -- Psalm 11:14; 102:19; 103:19; Isaiah 66:1.

That first heavens and earth, or "world" (kosmos), as spoken of by Peter, had already perished at the time of the writing of both Psalm 102:25-27 and also of Hebrews 1:10. This agrees with Genesis 6:13, where God tells Noah that he was about destroy that earth -- not the planet itself -- but the conditions that had become prevalent upon the planet. That heavens and earth -- that world (kosmos) -- perished, but it was not the physical heavens and earth that perished, for these still exist. Out of the ruins of that kosmos, however, another heavens and earth came into being, which Peter refers to as "the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured." (2 Peter 3:7, Young's Literal Translation) While it is possible that the same Logos of God was used in establishing and laying the foundation of the present heavens and earth as had been used in the original heavens and earth that had been destroyed in the flood of Noah's day (2 Peter 3:5,6) , we should also recognize that the word "kosmos" -- world -- usually refers to the general world of mankind, which world (kosmos) was corrupted due to the sin of Adam. (Romans 5:12) Nevertheless, by comparing all of these spiritual revealings, we can come to one of two conclusions: if the writer of Hebrews is using the same "heavens and earth" in the same manner of Peter, then that it is the present heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:7) that is being spoken of Hebrews 1:10, which heavens and earth were established after the flood of Noah's day. It is this heavens and earth that Peter says "the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." (2 Peter 3:10) This agrees perfectly with Hebrews 1:10. However, it seems more likely that Paul, assumed to be writer of Hebrews is actually referring to the whole period from the creation in Genesis 1 until the time it passes away, ignoring the separation that Peter makes.

We know that the word *kosmos* (world) can be applied to the present world of mankind as going all the way back to Adam, disregarding the destruction of the *kosmos* that is spoken of as having perished in 2 Peter 3:6. Romans 1:20 appears to be speaking of the original creation of the world, for instance. Romans 5:12 speaks of sin entering into the world (kosmos), thus applying the word as disregarding the world that perished in the flood of Noah's day. Thus it is probably that the heavens and earth made by the hands of Jesus Hebrews 1:10 is referring to the same period of time spoken of in Genesis 1:1 - 2:1.

Regardless, the heavens and earth being spoken of in Genesis 1:1 are said to be created by God, but we learn in the New Testament that God created "through" the Logos, or as it reads in the World English at Ephesians 3:9: "God ... created all things through Jesus Christ." Thus, "in [Greek, *en*, Strong's #1722, used here as signifying an instrument being used, thus, "by means of*"] him were the all things [literally, the all] created," "all things [the all] through [Greek, dia, Strong's #1223**] him, and for him, have been created him, and to him." -- Colossians 1:16, Young's Literal Translation.
*The Greek word *EN* does not always mean "instrumentality", but the only other meaning would be a location, either in time or space. The Greek word *EN* in Colossians 1:16 has to be seen as meaning instrumentality, or else the only other conclusion as that all things were literally created inside of the actual being of Jesus.
**The Greek word *dia* always denotes "the channel an act". Usually it represents an agent being used by another, but it can also mean the channel from which an act originates. The context, as well as the rest of the scriptures, show that in Colossians 1:16 the word is used to express that Jesus is used as an agent by the God and Father of Jesus in creation. (Colossians 1:3,10,11,12,13,15) One would have assume and add to the scripture that Jesus is God from this scripture.
Regarding Colossians 1:15,16, see our study: Is Jesus Designated the Originator of Creation?

The "heavens" that ruled the earth in the beginning was also established by means of the Logos. However, it was corrupted by a usurper. Using the King of Tyre as a symbol of the angel that rebelled, this arrangement is spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13-15. Originally, there was one appointed/anointed in the heavens over Eden as a covering cherub, and that one rebelled against God's arrangements. Satan set himself up as the ruler and "god of this world". (2 Corinthians 4:4) Thus, we are told that our fight is against "against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." -- Ephesians 6:12.

The foundations of human society were also laid there (Mark 10:6), in family and fraternal relationships, on the basis of love and justice, on which the human race could have built up a social structure as fine and as sweet as that of heaven; and, in perfect joy with each other, mankind could have delighted without fear in the unfolding wonders with which the Creator had filled the earth, and possibly even other planets. But Solomon said: "This only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions." -- Ecclesiastes 7:29.

They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. -- Hebrews 1:11.

This present evil world or arrangement -- both its heavens [the rulership by Satan and his demons as well as their human agencies] and its earth [the arrangement of disobedient human society in general] are to perish. Again, this is not speaking of the planet, nor of the physical heavens above, for these will never be removed.

As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail. -- Hebrews 1:12.

As a an old piece of clothing, they will be rolled up, and changed. As they were they will no longer be actively worn as a mantle. In effect, they will no longer be active. However, as God says: "Behold, I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5) The old system of Satan, as such is to be destroyed, but out of its "mantle", which is folded and changed, comes forth "the new heavens [with its New Jerusalem from which to rule] and the new earth," in which righteousness will dwell. - - Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13.

As foretold, Jesus has remained faithful from creation's beginning -- he has remained the same. Even while he came to suffer as a man on earth, he remained the same -- not the same in substance, for while as human, he did not have the glory of the heavenly substance (John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40), but he continued in faithful obedience to his God. (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8; 10:7-9) And Jesus now will remain the same, and his years will not fail or ever end, since having been made alive from death, he now dies no more. -- Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:16,25; Revelation 1:18.

There is nothing in any of this, however, that means that Jesus is Jehovah, his God. -- Hebrews 1:9.

What About Isaiah 48:13?

He laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved forever. -- Psalm 104:5, World English Bible translation.

Yes, my hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spread out the heavens: when I call to them, they stand up together. -- Isaiah 48:13, World English Bible translation.

He built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he has established forever. -- Psalm 78:69, World English Bible translation.

Through comparisons the scriptures, we should realize that the above scriptures are not speaking of the same things as "heavens" and "earth" that is being spoken of in Hebrews 1:10,11. In context of the latter, the heavens and earth are said to pass away. Thus, this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, nor is it speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. -- Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5; Matthew 18:10.

In Isaiah 48:13, Jehovah speaks of his laying the foundation of the physical earth and spreading out the physical heavens. These obey his commands, so that when he calls, they stand up together (in harmony). We see from Genesis 1:14-19 that the physical earth and the stars, etc., are shown as obeying the commands of Jehovah. -- Genesis 1:14-19.

The physical earth spoken of in Isaiah 48:13 has been established forever, and will never be removed forever . -- Psalm 78:69; 104:5 -- Strong's #05703 and #05769 are both used in Psalm 104:5, thus signifying that the foundation of the physical earth will never be removed.
Therefore, it will be true that the day will come when the righteous will never be removed from the physical earth when it has been made new, but the wicked will not dwell in the earth anymore. -- Psalm 37:9-11,22,28,39; Proverbs 10:30; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 20:1-5.
Thus, Isaiah 48:13 is speaking of the physical heavens and earth that will never be removed, while Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of a heavens and earth that will be be removed.

The Beginning

In Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, we read of a "beginning". Many have assumed that this "beginning" refers to absolutely everything in the universe, yet if we compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment, in both cases we can see that the scriptures show otherwise. Likewise, the "panta" -- all -- that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. -- John 1:10

In Exodus 20:11, we read:
for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Jehovah blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.
The above scripture says that Jehovah created the heavens and earth in 6 days. Does it mean 6 24-hour days? Genesis 2:4 speaks of "the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens." (KJV) In one place it says six days; in the other it speaks of one day. Obviously 6 X 24 hours does not equal 24 hours, so we realize that the word "day" is spoken of to designate any length of time -- sometimes consistent and definite in length and sometimes not so definite.

However, this entire creative "day", spoken of as "six days", is the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. It was this "world" that was made through Jesus, and which Jesus came into, and which did not recognize Jesus. (John 1:10) That the "beginning" spoken of in John 1:1 relates to the world into which Jesus came, can be seen from Jesus' statement in Mark 10:6: "But from the beginning of the creation, 'God made them male and female." (See also Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4) Jesus says that he was sent into this world by his God. "God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17, Revised Standard Version) It should be clear that by "world" here that Jesus did not mean the world of the angels, but rather that he was speaking of the world of mankind.

Jesus tells us that he was with his Father before this world, the world that he came into, and which world did not recognize him, was created. We have no reason to think that the glory which Jesus said he had with the only true God before the world was made was a glory that existed only the mind of God, for why should he ask for such a glory to be given to him? He was asking for the heavenly glory that he had with the only true God before the world into which he came was made, and which glory he did not possess while he was a human being. -- John 1:10; 17:5.

It needs to be emphasized what "world" is being spoken, in order to understand what is being spoken of when the scripture says that "all things were made through him, and without him not one thing was made." (John 1:3) It is this world that Jesus said he came into, and which he left. "I came out from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." (John 16:28, World English Bible translation) The scripture is not including the spirit world in this "world" of which he speaks, for it is not the spirit world that does not recognize him, but he refers to world that did not recognize him. The word "world" (kosmos) in the New Testament is consistently used, not of the material universe, but rather of the world in which mankind lives, although since the believers, or those in covenant relationship with God, are, in effect considered as separate from the world, the word "world" is thus sometimes used in exclusion of such believers. One can examine the usage of the word "kosmos" online at:

That there was, then, a creation before the beginning of the world of mankind can be seen in the fact that the angels were already in existence before the earth was brought forth. (Job 38:4-6) While the scriptures do not specifically speak of the creation of the angels, we have no reason to conclude that the angels were not created, since man is said to have be made a little lower than the angels. -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7.

The beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 refers to the six days of creation as respects the ordering of the earth for life, especially that of man. We know this because of Exodus 20:11, 31:17. The heavens [the atmosphere, sky -- Genesis 1:8] and the earth [land-masses -- Genesis 1:10] were made in six days. This agrees also with Matthew 19:4,5, Mark 10:6 which refer to the "beginning" as when Adam and Eve were created. The angels were already in existence at this beginning, for they shouted with joy at the creation of earth. (Job 38:4-11) Likewise the "earth" in some material form appears to have already existed, for it "was" at the beginning of the first day (Genesis 1:2), similar to the expression that the Logos "was" in the beginning spoken of in John 1:1. And we know that the angels were already in existence at this creation, since they are spoken of in Job 38:4-7 as shouting for joy at the creatin of the earth. (See also Job 1:6; 2:1) The above additionally would be in harmony with several scriptures where "creation" is spoken with reference to creation of mankind, not the angels, stars, etc. -- Mark 10:6; Romans 8:20,22; 2 Peter 3:4.

By this we can see that the heavens and earth, spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10, as well as the "world" spoken of John 1:9,10; 17:5, was the work of the God and Father of Jesus (Romans 1:7; 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3), which was indeed performed through Jesus (Ephesians 3:9), the firstborn creature. -- John 1:3; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:10,11.


One has asked: In the context of this quote from Psalms...who is the Lord?

I am not sure what is being asked here. I am assuming that it is asking who is "the LORD" as it appears in most translations of Psalm 102? Most translators are disobedient to God in changing the Holy Name to "the LORD", if that is what is being asked.

However, in Psalm 102:1-23, the Psalmist is speaking as though the Messiah, not Jehovah.

The following translation (provided by the person who asked the above question) renders the Holy Name as "Yahweh". But we should note that the Messiah says:

Let this be written for the next generation,
so that a people yet to be created may praise Yah,
that he looked down from his holy height.
Yahweh looked from heaven over the earth
to hear the groaning of the prisoner,
to liberate those destined to die,
so that they may make known in Zion the name of Yahweh,
and his praise in Jerusalem,
when the peoples assemble,
together with kingdoms, to serve Yahweh.
He has broken my strength along the way;
he has cut short my days.
I say, “My God, do not carry me off
from my life in the middle of my days.”
Jehovah then responds to the Messiah, His son:
Your years continue throughout all generations.
Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you will endure.
And like a garment they will all wear out,
you will replace them like clothing, and they will be set aside.
But you are the same,
and your years do not end.

This agrees with what is written in Hebrews 1:1-12; 5:7; 6:20; 13:20.

Related RL Studies:

For related studies on the above scriptures, see:

“Did Paul Misquote?”
WT, February 1883, page 8

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